Morgan Morris: Hi there. Today I'm interviewing Professor
Himla Soodyall, a human geneticist by training and extended practice. Professor Soodyall was part of the five-year international Genographic Project that looked to map historical human migrations using and analysing DNA samples. She is an international member of the American National Academy of Sciences, and recipient of many accolades, including the National Order of Mapungubwe (Bronze), awarded to her and recognition of her outstanding contributions in the field of science in South Africa by then President Thabo Mbeki back in 2005. She is currently the executive officer of the Academy of Science of South Africa (ASSAf). Hi, good day, professor Soodyall. Thank you for joining us.
Himla Soodyall: Thank you and good, good day.
Morgan Morris: I'm going to jump straight into the question - science innovation and South Africa's new government of national unity, the first coalition government since the country's first democratic elections in 1994. Now just for a bit of context, the departments of high education (DHET) and science in innovation (DSI) were merged in 2019, as what was then described as a cost-cutting measure. But now, despite ongoing concerns that the government is getting a little bloated and a little taxing on the state coffers, the two departments have again been split, with former Minister of High Education Doctor Blade Nzimande now appointed as minister as standalone Minister of Science and Innovation. No explanation has been given other than the president saying that “in some instances, we have considered it necessary to separate portfolios to ensure that there is sufficient focus on key issues”. That’s obviously kind of like political mission statement speak, but the ‘Science, Technology and Innovation Decadal Plan 2022-2032’ of the Department of Science Innovation (DSI) argued that because the two departments at this stage reported to the same minister, it had created “opportunities for alignment, joint programming and ultimately for improved synergies and efficiencies”. Now, Professor Soodyall, is there anything about this decision to split the two departments again – so I don't know what that means for alignment, joint programming and improved synergies – and does that decision bode anything significant, whether good or bad, for the life & natural sciences in the country?
Himla Soodyall: Well, actually, I'm actually excited that we are now a standalone department because I think the focus and importance of science, technology and innovation, as led by the Department of Science and Innovation, is quite a crucial responsibility of the state and I strongly believe that the various entities affiliated with the DSI, including ASSAf, have played a significant role in the advancement of science, technology and innovation, and could manage all of this well on their own, and if necessary to collaborate with DHET. We have done so, but mostly from a bottom-up rather than from a top-down approach. Equally, I am confident that the plans that Dr Phil Mjwara in his role as a DG (director-general), together with the deputy director-generals and the senior staff of the DSI have put into place measures to ensure the implementation of the Decadal Plan. And when I put it to Dr Phil Mjwara, why do we need to have a White Paper on SDI and the Decadal Plan, his answer to me was, well, the White Paper sets out the goals and objectives, and the Decadal Plan is actually the implementation thereof. And having seen some of the ongoings, when we meet as entity heads with the department, there's a lot going on in the background, which sadly the public is unaware of. I think we could be doing much, much better in terms of communicating the exciting activities that the department is doing so that the average man on the street is aware that, you know, science is moving in the direction of building on the nation. And at the same time, ensuring you know betterment of lives for society at large. So quite frankly, I have no qualms about the splitting. I believe that having Dr Blade Nzimande as our minister is good for us because we know him, we work well with him and we look forward to continuing in that way.
Morgan Morris: Is this the kind of case with the media and the politics seem to kind of steal the headlines, there's a lot of noise at the top, but then at the everyday level, people, the DG's, the people who work in the departments, are going ahead and just doing what has to be done?
Himla Soodyall: Yeah, I mean look within that plan, it is for me, it was mind boggling to see what was going on. For example, on the hydrogen platform, what was going on with the some of the medicinal pharmacogenomics in partnership with the Medical Research Council. So, unless you are at the coalface of it all, you're unaware of it and my response at that meeting last year in September was wow, I didn't know all of this was happening, that we have to come to a meeting of entity heads with the DG to talk about our annual performances, and yet all of this is happening. I think our communications department should be working very closely with the leadership, the chief directors and all the people entrusted with the mandates of ensuring the successes of these individual projects, to put it out there to the public, so that the public is aware, wow, that this is the science and the level of the science. And I must confess, the science is, internationally, of the quality that you would expect. So, so we shouldn't be putting ourselves down that you know we're in South Africa in a so-called developing world. I think the science and the products that we can produce are equal to anyone in the first world as well. So I'm pretty confident that we have the work packages to chip away in small bites. The elephant is large, but we can chip away at little bites, so that we roll over with confidence in the right direction.
Morgan Morris: But there's nothing inherently about the sort of the coalition government itself, the appointees, that suggest that we would we would step back from these kind of priority areas that we've identified, like climate change, like the future of education, skills and work. There's nothing inherently to suggest that the appointees could sort of slow down or renege on any of those commitments?
Himla Soodyall: I can't see that happening because the White Paper has been approved by Parliament, even the Decadal Plan, so the wheels are running. And at the end of the day, the politicians can't stall the momentum at which this is going. I mean, they may be able to chirp about certain things, but the doing is actually in the hands of the scientists. And therein lies, you know, some of the frustrations we feel are scientists. We come from a sporting nation. I mean, you know, we all know that the Springboks (national rugby team) are playing on Saturday. There'll be an overwhelming voice of support for that level of stuff. When it comes to politics, we are all very opinionated. You know we can, we can air our opinions, whether we have supported the evidence, etcetera. But at least with the science, even though we don't get the same recognition as scientists and what science can do, the value of science is that it is evidence based. There's a line of evidence, a chain of evidence in terms of support of what it is we are doing. But sadly, during the COVID era, the trust in science was kind of obliterated. And so we have a lot of work to do to rebuild the trust, the confidence and to allow people to see why science, whether it is the, you know, the physical sciences, the hard sciences or the social sciences, to just stand back a little and watch the way science rolls in motion.
Morgan Morris: So I want to talk a little bit about the Decadal Plan which kind of highlighted the issue of human resources for science, technology innovation, and it indicated in the document that the department will look into it into initiatives to increase the output of human capabilities from the research system. However, and these are just sort of anecdotal discussions sort of thoughts when I talk to scientists, especially those who are kind of supervising postgraduate students. The sentiments appear to be that funding opportunities for those students, especially that through the National Research Foundation (NRF), have been dropping year on year and quite significantly. One article I found indicated funding for 2024-25 was scheduled to drop some 28% from the year before. Which the article then boiled down to 1,000 fewer researchers we can put through the system. Is the picture as straightforward as that? That the state isn't living up to that kind of priority? Or is the picture perhaps a little bit more nuanced and complex than that? And there are other funding opportunities perhaps?
Himla Soodyall: Yeah, look, it is it is complex and let us not beat around the bush. We've had significant budget cuts and the NRF has got significant budget cuts, so they're working with limited resources. The number of postgraduate students requiring assistance has increased over the years, and so in in keeping with their transformation policy, they are trying to give students better support. Because most of the students who need financial aid are coming from outside of the city centres. So in addition to paying for fees, there's accommodation, subsistence allowances, etcetera, and that becomes quite expensive in this economy of ours where inflation is going through the roof. The NRF has had to take decisions to support fewer students, but to ensure that they got support so that they could continue. The other issue is that when you fill the lower end of the infrastructure widely, then the attrition rate in the later years increases as many students fall out of the system. And so your investment will get fewer returns. So yes, we all hope that there could be much more money in the system to provide support for many, many more students. And we feel we feel that pinch throughout. A second thing is in some areas, like my discipline of pathology, for graduates to find employment, you need to complete a two-year internship. And the internship positions are lacking. Support thereof is lacking, so you are right that we are creating a system where we have fewer skilled people to fill positions, to fill jobs where they have the appropriate training and background for.
Morgan Morris: Is this an opportunity for the private sector to perhaps step in, or is it just a matter of we're gonna resign ourselves to our fate?
Himla Soodyall: Yes, the private sector is dependent on the public sector to produce the students. And they wait at the end of the pipeline and they suck them all up. So, yes, public-private partnerships early on are desirable, but I think there are challenges on all sides. I'm not so sure I'm not an economist, but I get a sense that, you know, having just been squeezed through the COVID pandemic, that there's challenges on all sides. So let's just hope that in years to come, there's better will, and that the private sector is more amenable to putting in more money into the system.
Morgan Morris: Well, thank you so much for making the time available to speak to us, Professor Soodyall. Thank you. And yeah, hope you have a lovely day and I hope that Paolini comes through for both. (Sadly, Paolini lost in the Wimbledon finals.)
Himla Soodyall: No, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to have this chat with you.
