Abstract
Quantum theory provides an extremely accurate description of fundamental processes in physics. It thus seems likely that the theory is applicable beyond the, mostly microscopic, domain in which it has been tested experimentally. Here, we propose a Gedankenexperiment to investigate the question whether quantum theory can, in principle, have universal validity. The idea is that, if the answer was yes, it must be possible to employ quantum theory to model complex systems that include agents who are themselves using quantum theory. Analysing the experiment under this presumption, we find that one agent, upon observing a particular measurement outcome, must conclude that another agent has predicted the opposite outcome with certainty. The agents’ conclusions, although all derived within quantum theory, are thus inconsistent. This indicates that quantum theory cannot be extrapolated to complex systems, at least not in a straightforward manner.
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Introduction
Direct experimental tests of quantum theory are mostly restricted to microscopic domains. Nevertheless, quantum theory is commonly regarded as being (almost) universally valid. It is not only used to describe fundamental processes in particle and solid state physics, but also, for instance, to explain the cosmic microwave background or the radiation of black holes.
The presumption that the validity of quantum theory extends to larger scales has remarkable consequences, as noted already in 1935 by Schrödinger1. His famous example consisted of a cat that is brought into a state corresponding to a superposition of two macroscopically entirely different states, one in which it is dead and one in which it is alive. Schrödinger pointed out, however, that such macroscopic superposition states do not represent anything contradictory in themselves.
This view was not shared by everyone. In 1967, Wigner proposed an argument, known as the Wigner’s Friend Paradox, which should show that “quantum mechanics cannot have unlimited validity”2. His idea was to consider the views of two different observers in an experiment analogous to the one depicted in Fig. 1. One observer, called agent F, measures the vertical polarisation z of a spin one-half particle S, such as a silver atom. Upon observing the outcome, which is either \(z = - \frac{1}{2}\) or \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\), agent F would thus say that S is in state
respectively. The other observer, agent W, has no direct access to the outcome z observed by his friend F. Agent W could instead model agent F’s lab as a big quantum system, L ≡ S ⊗ D ⊗ F, which contains the spin S as a subsystem, another subsystem, D, for the friend’s measurement devices and everything else connected to them, as well as a subsystem F that includes the friend herself. Suppose that, from agent W’s perspective, the lab L is initially in a pure state and that it remains isolated during agent F’s spin measurement experiment. (One may object that these assumptions are unrealistic3, but, crucially, the laws of quantum theory do not preclude that they be satisfied to arbitrarily good approximation4.) Translated to quantum mechanics, this means that the dependence of the final state of L on the initial state of S is described by a linear map of the form
Wigner’s and Deutsch’s arguments. Agent F measures the spin S of a silver atom in the vertical direction, obtaining outcome z. From F’s perspective, S is then in one of the two pure states ψS given in (1). Agent W, who is outside of F’s lab, may instead regard that lab, including the agent F, as a big quantum system L (orange box). Wigner argued that, having no access to z, he would assign a superposition state ΨL of the form (3) to L2. Deutsch later noted that agent W could in principle test this state assignment by applying a carefully designed measurement to L6
Here, |“\({ {\mathrm{z}} = - \frac{1}{2} }\)”〉D and |“\( {\mathrm{z}} = + \frac{1}{2}\)”〉D denote states of D depending on the measurement outcome z shown by the devices within the lab. Analogously, |“\({\psi _{\mathrm{S}} =\left | \downarrow \right\rangle }\)”〉F and |“\({\psi _{\mathrm{S}} = \left| \uparrow \right\rangle}\)”〉F are states of F, which we may label by the friend's own knowledge of \(\psi _{\mathrm{S}}\); cf. (1). Now, suppose agent W knew that the spin was initialized to \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}} \equiv \sqrt {1/2} \left( {\left| \downarrow \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}} + \left| \uparrow \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}} \right)\) before agent F measured it. Then, by linearity, the final state that agent W would assign to L is
i.e., a linear superposition of the two macroscopically distinct states defined in (2). To compare this to agent F’s view (1), one must consider the restriction of (3) to S. The latter is a maximally mixed state, and thus obviously different from agent F’s pure state assignment (1). But, crucially, the difference can be explained by the two agents’ distinct level of knowledge: Agent F has observed z and hence knows the final spin direction, whereas agent W is ignorant about it5. Consequently, although the superposition state (3) may appear “absurd”2, it does not contradict (1). For this reason, the Wigner’s Friend Paradox cannot be regarded as an argument that rules out quantum mechanics as a universally valid theory.
In this work we propose a Gedankenexperiment that extends Wigner’s setup. It consists of agents who are using quantum theory to reason about other agents who are also using quantum theory. Our main finding is that such a self-referential use of the theory yields contradictory claims. This result can be phrased as a no-go theorem (Theorem 1). It asserts that three natural-sounding assumptions, (Q), (C), and (S), cannot all be valid. Assumption (Q) captures the universal validity of quantum theory (or, more specifically, that an agent can be certain that a given proposition holds whenever the quantum-mechanical Born rule assigns probability-1 to it). Assumption (C) demands consistency, in the sense that the different agents’ predictions are not contradictory. Finally, (S) is the requirement that, from the viewpoint of an agent who carries out a particular measurement, this measurement has one single outcome. The theorem itself is neutral in the sense that it does not tell us which of these three assumptions is wrong. However, it implies that any specific interpretation of quantum theory, when applied to the Gedankenexperiment, will necessarily conflict with at least one of them. This gives a way to test and categorise interpretations of quantum theory.
Results
The Gedankenexperiment
In the setup considered by Wigner (cf. Fig. 1), agent F carries out her measurement of S in a perfectly isolated lab L, so that the outcome z remains unknown to anyone else. The basic idea underlying the Gedankenexperiment we present here is to make some of the information about z available to the outside—but without lifting the isolation of L. Roughly, this is achieved by letting the initial state of S depend on a random value, r, which is known to another agent outside of L.
Box 1 specifies the proposed Gedankenexperiment as a step-wise procedure. The steps are to be executed by different agents—four in total. Two of them, the “friends” F and \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\), are located in separate labs, denoted by L and \(\overline {\mathrm{L}}\), respectively. The two other agents, W and \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\), are at the outside, from where they can apply measurements to L and \(\overline {\mathrm{L}}\), as shown in Fig. 2. We assume that L and \(\overline {\mathrm{L}}\) are, from the viewpoint of the agents W and \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\), initially in a pure state, and that they remain isolated during the experiment unless the protocol explicitly prescribes a communication step or a measurement applied to them. Note that the experiment can be described within standard quantum-mechanical formalism, with each step corresponding to a fixed evolution map acting on particular subsystems (cf. the circuit diagram in the Methods section).
Illustration of the Gedankenexperiment. In each round n = 0, 1, 2, … of the experiment, agent \(\overline{{F}}\) tosses a coin and, depending on the outcome r, polarises a spin particle S in a particular direction. Agent F then measures the vertical polarisation z of S. Later, agents \(\overline{{W}}\) and \({{W}}\) measure the entire labs \(\overline {{L}}\) and \({{L}}\) (where the latter includes S) to obtain outcomes \(\overline w\) and w, respectively. For the analysis of the experiment, we assume that all agents are aware of the entire procedure as specified in Box 1, but they are located at different places and therefore make different observations. Agent F, for instance, observes z but has no direct access to r. She may however use quantum theory to draw conclusions about r
As indicated by the term Gedankenexperiment, we do not claim that the experiment is technologically feasible, at least not in the form presented here. Like other thought experiments, its purpose is not to probe nature, but rather to scrutinise the consistency of our currently best available theories that describe nature—in this case quantum theory. (One may compare this to, say, the Gedankenexperiment of letting an observer cross the event horizon of a black hole. Although we do not have the technology to carry out this experiment, reasoning about it provides us with insights on relativity theory.)
Before proceeding to the analysis of the experiment, a few comments about its relation to earlier proposals are in order. In the case where r = tails, agent F receives S prepared in state \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{s}}.\) The first part of the experiment, prior to the measurements carried out by the agents \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) and W, is then equivalent to Wigner’s original experiment as described in the section Introduction2. Furthermore, adding to this the measurement of agent F’s lab by agent W, one retrieves an extension of Wigner’s experiment proposed by Deutsch6 (Fig. 1). The particular procedure of how agent F prepares the spin S in the first step described in Box 1, as well as the choice of measurements, is motivated by a construction due to Hardy7,8, known as Hardy’s Paradox. The setup considered here is also similar to a proposal by Brukner9, who used a modification of Wigner’s argument to obtain a strengthening of Bell’s theorem10 (cf. Discussion section).
Analysis of the Gedankenexperiment
We analyse the experiment from the viewpoints of the four agents, \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\), F, \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\), and W, who have access to different pieces of information (cf. Fig. 2). We assume, however, that all agents are aware of the entire experimental procedure as described in Box 1, and that they all employ the same theory. One may thus think of the agents as computers that, in addition to carrying out the steps of Box 1, are programmed to draw conclusions according to a given set of rules. In the following, we specify these rules as assumptions (Boxes 2–4).
The first such assumption, Assumption (Q) is that any agent A “uses quantum theory.” By this we mean that A may predict the outcome of a measurement on any system S around him via the quantum-mechanical Born rule. For our purposes, it suffices to consider the special case where the state \(\left| \psi \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\) that A assigns to S lies in the image of only one of the measurement operators \(\pi _x^{t_0}\), say the one with x = ξ. In this case, the Born rule asserts that the outcome x equals ξ with certainty; see Box 2.
Crucially, S may be a large and complex system, even one that itself contains agents. In fact, to start our analysis, we take the system S to be the entire lab L, which in any round n of the experiment is measured with respect to the Heisenberg operators \(\pi _{w = {\mathrm{ok}}}^{n:10}\) and \(\pi^{n:10}_{w=fail}\) defined in Table 2. Suppose that agent \(\overline{\mathrm{F}}\) wants to predict the outcome \(w\) of this measurement. To this aim, she may start her reasoning with a statement that describes the corresponding measurement.
Statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:00}\): “The value w is obtained by a measurement of L w.r.t.\(\left\{ {\pi _{w = {\mathrm{ok}}}^{{n:10}},\pi _{w = {\mathrm{fail}}}^{{n:10}}} \right\},\) which is completed at time n:31.”
Here and in the following, we specify for each statement a time, denoted as a superscript, indicating when the agent could have inferred the statement. Agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:00}\) above does not depend on any observations, so the time n:00 we have assigned to it is rather arbitrary. This is, however, different for the next statement, which is based on knowledge of the value r. Suppose that agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) got r = tails as the output of the random number generator in round n. According to the experimental instructions, she will then prepare the spin S in state \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}.\) Now, after completing the preparation, say at time n:01, she may make a second statement, taking into account that S remains unchanged until F starts her measurement at time n:10.
Statement \(\overline{\mathrm{F}}^{n:01}\): “The spin S is in state \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\) at time n:10.”
Agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) could conclude from this that the later state of the lab L, \(U_{{\mathrm{S}} \to {\mathrm{L}}}^{{\mathrm{10}} \to {\mathrm{20}}}\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}} = \sqrt {\frac{1}{2}} \left( {\left| { - \frac{1}{2}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{L}} + \left| { + \frac{1}{2}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{L}}} \right)\), will be orthogonal to \(\left| {{\mathrm{ok}}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{L}}\). An equivalent way to express this is that the state \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\) has no overlap with the Heisenberg measurement operator corresponding to outcome w = ok, i.e.,
The two statements \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:00}\) and \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:01}\), inserted into (Q), thus imply that w = fail. We may assume that agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) draws this conclusion at time n:02 and, for later use, put it down as statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:02}\) in Table 3. Similarly, agent F’s reasoning may be based upon a description of her spin measurement, which is defined by the operators \(\pi _{z = - \frac{1}{2}}^{n:10}\) and \(\pi _{z = + \frac{1}{2}}^{n:10}\) given in Table 2.
Statement \({\mathrm{F}}^{n:10}\): “The value z is obtained by a measurement of the spin S w.r.t.\(\left\{ {{\mathrm{\pi }}_{z = - \frac{1}{2}}^{{n:10}},\;{\mathrm{\pi }}_{z = + \frac{1}{2}}^{{n:10}}} \right\}\), which is completed at time n:11.”
Suppose now that agent F observed \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) in round n. Since, by definition,
it follows from (Q) that S was not in state \(\left| \downarrow \right\rangle\), and hence that the random value r was not heads. This is statement \({\mathrm{F}}^{n:12}\) of Table 3. We proceed with agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\), who may base his reasoning upon his knowledge of how the random number generator was initialised.
Statement \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{n:21}\):“System R is in state \(\left| {{\mathrm{init}}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{R}}\) at time n:00.”
Consider the event that \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) and \(z = - \frac{1}{2}\), as well as its complement. The Heisenberg operators of the corresponding measurement are given in Table 2. It is straightforward to verify that \(U_{{\mathrm{R}} \to \overline {\mathrm{L}} {\mathrm{S}}}^{{\mathrm{00}} \to {\mathrm{10}}}\left| {{\mathrm{init}}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{R}} = \sqrt {\frac{1}{3}} \left| {\overline {\mathrm{h}} } \right\rangle _{\overline{\mathrm{L}}} \otimes \left| \downarrow \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}} + \sqrt {\frac{2}{3}} \left| {\overline {\mathrm{t}} } \right\rangle _{\overline{\mathrm{L}}} \otimes \left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\) is orthogonal to \(\left| {\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} } \right\rangle _{\overline {\mathrm{L}} } \otimes \left| \downarrow \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\), which implies that
Agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\), who also uses (Q), can hence be certain that \(\left( {\overline w ,z} \right) \ne \left( {\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} , - \frac{1}{2}} \right)\). This implies that statement \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{n:22}\) of Table 3 holds whenever \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\). Furthermore, because agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) announces \(\overline w\), agent W can be certain about \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\)’s knowledge, which justifies statement \({\mathrm{W}} ^{n:26}\) of the table. We have thus established all statements in the third column of Table 3.
For later use we also note that a simple calculation yields
where \({\mathrm{\pi }}_{(\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})}^{n:00}\) is the Heisenberg operator belonging to the event that \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) and \(w = {\mathrm{ok}}\), as defined in Table 2. Hence, according to quantum mechanics, agent W can be certain that the outcome \((\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})\) occurs after finitely many rounds. This corresponds to the following statement (which can indeed be derived using (Q), as shown in the Methods section).
Statement W0:00: “I am certain that there exists a round n in which the halting condition at time n:40 is satisfied.”
The agents may now obtain further statements by reasoning about how they would reason from the viewpoint of other agents, as illustrated in Fig. 3. To enable such nested reasoning we need another assumption, Assumption (C); see Box 3.
Consistent reasoning as required by Assumption (C). If a theory T (such as quantum theory) enables consistent reasoning (C) then it must allow any agent A to promote the conclusions drawn by another agent A' to his own conclusions, provided that A' has the same initial knowledge about the experiment and reasons within the same theory T. A classical example of such recursive reasoning is the muddy children puzzle (here T is just standard logic; see ref. 11 for a detailed account). The idea of using a physical theory T to describe agents who themselves use T has also appeared in thermodynamics, notably in discussions around Maxwell's demon12
Agent F may insert agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:02}}}\) into \({\mathrm{F}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:12}}}\), obtaining statement \({\mathrm{F}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:13}}}\) in Table 3. By virtue of (C), she may then conclude that statement \({\mathrm{F}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:14}}}\) holds, too. Similarly, \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) may combine this latter statement with his statement \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:22}}}\) to obtain \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:23}}}\). He could then, again using (C), conclude that statement \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:24}}}\) holds. Finally, agent W can insert this into his statement \({\mathrm{W}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:26}}}\) to obtain statement \({\mathrm{W}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:27}}}\) and, again with (C), statement \({\mathrm{W}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:28}}}\). This completes the derivation of all statements in Table 3.
For the last part of our analysis, we take again agent W’s perspective. According to statement \({\mathrm{W}}^{{{n:00}}}\), the experiment has a final round n in which the halting condition will be satisfied, meaning in particular that agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) announces \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\). Agent W infers from this that statement Wn:28 of Table 3 holds in that round, i.e., he is certain that he will observe w = fail at time n:31. However, in this final round, he will nevertheless observe w = ok! We have thus reached a contradiction—unless agent W would accept that w simultaneously admits multiple values. For our discussion below, it will be useful to introduce an explicit assumption, termed Assumption (S), which disallows this; see Box 4.
No-go theorem
The conclusion of the above analysis may be phrased as a no-go theorem.
Theorem 1. Any theory that satisfies assumptions (Q), (C), and (S) yields contradictory statements when applied to the Gedankenexperiment of Box 1.
To illustrate the theorem, we consider in the following different interpretations and modifications of quantum theory. Theorem 1 implies that any of them must violate either (Q), (C), or (S). This yields a natural categorisation as shown in Table 4 and discussed in the following subsections.
Theories that violate Assumption (Q)
Assumption (Q) corresponds to the quantum-mechanical Born rule. Since the assumption is concerned with the special case of probability-1 predictions only, it is largely independent of interpretational questions, such as the meaning of probabilities in general. However, the nontrivial aspect of (Q) is that it regards the Born rule as a universal law. That is, it demands that an agent A can apply the rule to arbitrary systems S around her, including large ones that may contain other agents. The specifier “around” is crucial, though: Assumption (Q) does not demand that agent A can describe herself as a quantum system. Such a requirement would indeed be overly restrictive (see ref. 13) for it would immediately rule out interpretations in the spirit of Copenhagen, according to which the observed quantum system and the observer must be distinct from each other14,15.
Assumption (Q) is manifestly violated by theories that postulate a modification of standard quantum mechanics, such as spontaneous16,17,18,19,20 and gravity-induced21,22,23 collapse models (cf. 24 for a review). These deviate from the standard theory already on microscopic scales, although the effects of the deviation typically only become noticeable in larger systems.
In some approaches to quantum mechanics, it is simply postulated that large systems are “classical”, but the physical mechanism that explains the absence of quantum features remains unspecified25. In the view described in ref. 3, for instance, the postulate says that measurement devices are infinite-dimensional systems whereas observables are finite. This ensures that coherent and incoherent superpositions in the state of a measurement device are indistinguishable. Similarly, according to the “ETH approach”26, the algebra of available observables is time-dependent and does not allow one to distinguish coherent from incoherent superpositions once a measurement has been completed. General measurements on systems that count themselves as measurement devices are thus ruled out. Another example is the “CSM ontology”27, according to which measurements must always be carried out in a “context”, which includes the measurement devices. It is then postulated that this context cannot itself be treated as a quantum system. Within all these interpretations, the Born rule still holds “for all practical purposes”, but is no longer a universally applicable law in the sense of Assumption (Q) (see the discussion in ref. 4).
Another class of theories that violate (Q), although in a less obvious manner, are particular “hidden-variable (HV) interpretations”28, with “Bohmian mechanics” as the most prominent example29,30,31. According to the common understanding, Bohmian mechanics is a “theory of the universe” rather than a theory about subsystems32. This means that agents who apply the theory must in principle always take an outside perspective on the entire universe, describing themselves as part of it. This outside perspective is identical for all agents, which ensures consistency and hence the validity of Assumption (C). However, because (S) is satisfied, too, it follows from Theorem 1 that (Q) must be violated (see the Methods section for more details).
Theories that violate Assumption (C)
If a theory satisfies (Q) and (S) then, by Theorem 1, it must violate (C). This conclusion applies to a wide range of common readings of quantum mechanics, including most variants of the Copenhagen interpretation. One concrete example is the “consistent histories” (CH) formalism33,34,35, which is also similar to the “decoherent histories” approach36,37. Another class of examples are subjectivistic interpretations, which regard statements about outcomes of measurements as personal to an agent, such as “relational quantum mechanics”38, “QBism”39,40, or the approach proposed in ref. 9 (see Methods section for a discussion of the CH formalism as well as QBism).
The same conclusion applies to HV interpretations of quantum mechanics, provided that we use them to describe systems around us rather than the universe as a whole (contrasting the paradigm of Bohmian mechanics discussed above). In this case, both (Q) and (S) hold by construction. This adds another item to the long list of no-go results for HV interpretations: they cannot be local10, they must be contextual41,42, and they violate freedom of choice43,44. Theorem 1 entails that they also violate (C). In particular, there cannot exist an assignment of values to the HVs that is consistent with the agents’ conclusions.
Theories that violate Assumption (S)
Although intuitive, (S) is not implied by the bare mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics. Among the theories that abandon the assumption are the “relative state formulation” and “many-worlds interpretations”6,45,46,47,48. According to the latter, any quantum measurement results in a branching into different “worlds”, in each of which one of the possible measurement outcomes occurs. Further developments and variations include the “many-minds interpretation”49,50 and the “parallel lives theory”51. A related concept is “quantum Darwinism”52, whose purpose is to explain the perception of classical measurement outcomes in a unitarily evolving universe.
While many-worlds interpretations manifestly violate (S), their compatibility with (Q) and (C) depends on how one defines the branching. If one regards it as an objective process, (Q) may be violated (cf. the example in Section 10 of ref. 53). It is also questionable whether (Q) can be upheld if branches do not persist over time (cf. the no-histories view described in ref. 54).
Implicit assumptions
Any no-go result, as for example Bell’s theorem10, is phrased within a particular framework that comes with a set of built-in assumptions. Hence it is always possible that a theory evades the conclusions of the no-go result by not fulfilling these implicit assumptions. Here we briefly discuss how Theorem 1 compares in this respect to other results in the literature.
Bell’s original work10 treats probabilities as a primitive notion. Similarly, many of the modern arguments in quantum foundations employ probabilistic frameworks55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62. In contrast, probabilities are not used in the argument presented here—although Assumption (Q) is of course motivated by the idea that a statement can be regarded as “certain” if the Born rule assigns probability-1 to it. In particular, Theorem 1 does not depend on how probabilities different from 1 are interpreted.
Another distinction is that the framework used here treats all statements about observations as subjective, i.e., they are always defined relative to an agent. This avoids the a priori assumption that measurement outcomes obtained by different agents simultaneously have definite values. (Consider for example Wigner’s original setup described in section Introduction. Even when Assumptions (C) and (S) hold, agent W is not forced to assign a definite value to the outcome z observed by agent F.) The assumption of simultaneous definiteness is otherwise rather common. It not only enters the proof of Bell’s theorem10 but also the aforementioned arguments based on probabilistic frameworks.
Nevertheless, in our considerations, we used concepts such as that of an “agent” or of “time”. It is conceivable that the conclusions of Theorem 1 can be avoided by theories that provide a nonstandard understanding of these concepts. We are, however, not aware of any concrete examples of such theories.
Discussion
In the Gedankenexperiment proposed in this article, multiple agents have access to different pieces of information, and draw conclusions by reasoning about the information held by others. In the general context of quantum theory, the rules for such nested reasoning may be ambiguous, for the information held by one agent can, from the viewpoint of another agent, be in a superposition of different “classical” states. Crucially, however, in the argument presented here, the agents’ conclusions are all restricted to supposedly unproblematic “classical” cases. For example, agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) only needs to derive a statement about agent F in the case where, conditioned on his own information \(\bar w\), the information z held by F has a well-defined value (Table 3). Nevertheless, as we have shown, the agents arrive at contradictory statements.
Current interpretations of quantum theory do not agree on the origin of this contradiction (cf. Table 4). To compare the different views, it may therefore be useful to rephrase the experiment as a concrete game-theoretic decision problem. Suppose that a casino offers the following gambling game. One round of the experiment of Box 1 is played, with the gambler in the role of agent W, and the roles of \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\), F, and \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) taken by employees of the casino. The casino promises to pay €1000 to the gambler if F’s random value was r = heads. Conversely, if r = tails, the gambler must pay €500 to the casino. It could now happen that, at the end of the game, w = ok and \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\), and that a judge can convince herself of this outcome. The gambler and the casino are then likely to end up in a dispute, putting forward arguments taken from Table 3.
Gambler: “The outcome w = ok proves, due to (4), that S was not prepared in state \(\left| \to \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\). This means that r = heads and hence the casino must pay me €1000.”
Casino: “The outcome \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) implies, due to (6), that our employee observed \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\). This in turn proves that S was not prepared in state \(\left| \downarrow \right\rangle _{\mathrm{S}}\). But this means that r = tails, so the gambler must pay us €500.”
How should the judge decide on this case? Could it even be that both assertions must be accepted as two “alternative facts” about what the value r was? We leave it as a task for further research to explore what the different interpretations of quantum mechanics have to say about this game.
Theorem 1 may be compared to earlier no-go results, such as7,8,9,10,41,42,43, which also use assumptions similar to (Q) and (S) (although the latter is often implicit). These two assumptions are usually shown to be in conflict with additional assumptions about reality, locality, or freedom of choice. For example, the result of ref. 9, which is as well based on an extension of Wigner’s argument, asserts that no theory can fulfil all of the following properties: (i) be compatible with quantum theory on all scales, (ii) simultaneously assign definite truth values to measurement outcomes of all agents, (iii) allow agents to freely choose measurement settings, and (iv) be local. Here, we have shown that Assumptions (Q) and (S) are already problematic by themselves, in the sense that agents who use these assumptions to reason about each other as in Fig. 3 will arrive at inconsistent conclusions.
Another noticeable difference to earlier no-go results is that the argument presented here does not employ counterfactual reasoning. That is, it does not refer to choices that could have been made but have not actually been made. In fact, in the proposed experiment, the agents never make any choices (also no delayed ones, as e.g., in Wheeler’s “delayed choice” experiment63). Also, none of the agents’ statements refers to values that are no longer available at the time when the statement is made (cf. Table 3).
We conclude by suggesting a modified variant of the experiment, which may be technologically feasible. The idea is to substitute agents \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) and F by computers. Specifically, one would program them to carry out the tasks prescribed in Box 1, process the information accessible to them, and output statements such as “I am certain that W will observe w = fail at 1:31.” To account for the requirement that \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) and F’s labs be isolated, one would need to ensure that the computers used for their simulation do not leak any information to their environment—a property which is necessarily satisfied by quantum computers. Such an experiment could then be used to verify the statements in Table 3. For example, aborting the experiment right after 1:13, one could, in the case when \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\), read out statement F1:13 made by agent F together with statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{1:02}\) that agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) has made just before. This would be a test for the correctness of statement \({\mathrm{F}}^{{\mathrm{1:13}}}\). Note that all statements in the fourth column of Table 3 could in the same way be tested experimentally. In this sense, quantum computers, motivated usually by applications in computing, may help us answering questions in fundamental research.
Methods
Information-theoretic description
The experimental protocol described in Box 1 may be represented as a circuit diagram, Fig. 4. The diagram emphasises the information-theoretic aspects of the experiment. While all agents have full information about the overall evolution (the circuit diagram itself), they have access to different data (corresponding to different wires in the diagram).
Circuit diagram representation of the Gedankenexperiment. The actions of the agents during the protocol correspond to isometries (boxes) that act on particular subsystems (wires). For example, the measurement of S by agent F in the second protocol step, which starts at time n:10, induces an isometry \(U_{{\sf{S}} \to {\sf{L}}}^{{\mathrm{10}} \to {\mathrm{20}}}\) from S to F’s lab L, analogous to the one defined by (2). The subsystems labelled by \(\overline {{F}}\), F, \(\overline {{W}}\), and W contain the agents themselves. Similarly, \(\overline {{D}}\), \({{D}}\), \(\overline {{E}}\), and \({{E}}\) are “environment” subsystems, which include the agents’ measurement devices. The states of these subsystems depend on the measurement outcome, which is indicated by their label. For example, \(\left| { + \frac{1}{2}} \right\rangle\)F is the state of F when the agent has observed \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\)
Derivation of statement W0 : 00 using Assumption (Q)
In the analysis of the Gedankenexperiment we argued that the event \((\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})\) must occur after finitely many rounds n, which is statement W0:00 described shortly after (7). While this is a pretty obvious consequence of the Born rule, we now show that it already follows from Assumption (Q), which corresponds to the special case of the Born rule when it gives probability-1 predictions.
We consider Heisenberg operators relative to time \(t_0 = {\mathrm{0}{:}{00}}\), i.e., right before the experiment starts. For any round n, let Wn be the isometry from \({\Bbb C}\) to \({\bar{\mathrm L}}\) ⊗ L that includes the initialisation of system R in state \(\left| {{\mathrm{init}}} \right\rangle _{\mathrm{R}}\) as well as \(U_{{\mathrm{R}} \to {\overline{\mathrm{L}S}}}^{{\mathrm{00}} \to {\mathrm{10}}}\) and \(U_{{\mathrm{S}} \to {\mathrm{L}}}^{{\mathrm{10}} \to {\mathrm{20}}}\) (cf. Table 1), i.e.,
The Heisenberg operator of the event \((\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})\) in round n relative to time t0 can thus be written as
We may now specify a Heisenberg operator \({\mathrm{\pi}}_{{\mathrm{halt}}}^{{\mathrm{0:00}}}\) for the halting condition, i.e., that the event \((\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})\) occurs in some round n,
Note that these are operators on \({\Bbb C}\), i.e., \({\mathrm{\pi }}_{(\overline w ,w) = (\overline {{\mathrm{ok}}} ,{\mathrm{ok}})}^{(n)} = p\) for some \(p \in \mathbb{C}\). It follows directly from (7) that p = 1/12 > 0. We thus have
Inserting this measurement operator into the corresponding statement of Assumption (Q) yields statement W0:00.
Analysis within Bohmian mechanics
According to Bohmian mechanics, the state of a system of particles consists of their quantum-mechanical wave function together with an additional set of variables that specify the particles’ spatial positions.
While the wave function evolves according to the Schrödinger equation, the time evolution of the additional position variables is governed by another equation of motion, sometimes referred to as the “guiding equation”. The general understanding is that these equations of motion must always be applied to the universe as a whole. As noted in ref. 32, “if we postulate that subsystems [rather than the universe] must obey Bohmian mechanics, we ‘commit redundancy and risk inconsistency.ʼ”
The Gedankenexperiment presented in this work shows that this risk is real. Indeed, if the agents applied the Bohmian equations of motion directly to the relevant systems around them, rather than to the universe as a whole, their reasoning would be the same as the one prescribed by (Q). But since Bohmian mechanics also satisfies (S), this would, by virtue of Theorem 1, imply a violation of (C), i.e., the agents’ conclusions would contradict each other. (This finding should not be confused with the known fact that, if the spatial position of a particle is measured, the Bohmian position of the measurement device’s pointer is sometimes incompatible with the Bohmian position of the measured particle64,65,66,67,68.)
The directive in ref. 32 that Bohmian mechanics should be applied to the entire universe means that the agents must model themselves from an outside perspective. This ensures that they all have the same view, so that reasoning according to (C) is unproblematic. But then, because of Theorem 1, (Q) is necessarily violated. This is indeed confirmed by an explicit calculation in Bohmian mechanics, which reveals that statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{{n:}02}\) of Table 3 does not hold there. Furthermore, the time order of the measurements carried out by agents \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) and W is relevant within Bohmian mechanics. If agent W measured before agent \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) then, according to Bohmian mechanics, statement \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{n:22}\) would be invalid whereas \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{n:02}\) would hold. This is a clear departure from standard quantum mechanics, where the time order in which agents \(\overline {\mathrm{W}}\) and W carry out their measurements is irrelevant, because they act on separate systems.
This violation of (Q) raises the question under what circumstances Bohmian mechanics still endorses the use of the quantum-mechanical Born rule for predicting the outcome of a measurement. A candidate criterion could be that such a prediction is only valid if a memory of the prediction is available upon completion of the measurement. One may then be tempted to argue that agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:02}}}\), for instance, is invalid because \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) is herself subject to a measurement, which may destroy her memory of the prediction for w before that value is measured. This argument does however not work. The reason is that, in the relevant case when \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\), the value r and hence also agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s prediction for w is, by virtue of statements \(\overline {\mathrm{W}} ^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:22}}}\) and \({\mathrm{F}}^{{\it{n}}{\mathrm{:12}}}\), retrievable at the time when w is measured.
Analysis within the CH formalism
In the CH formalism, statements about measurement outcomes are phrased in terms of “histories”. These must, by definition, be elements of a whole family of histories, called a “framework”, that satisfies certain consistency conditions. In the Gedankenexperiment proposed in this work, a possible history would be
History h1: “In round n the outcomes r = tails, \(z = + \frac{1}{2},\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\), and w = ok were observed.”
To verify that h1 is indeed a valid history, one has to construct a framework containing this history. It is straightforward to check that one such framework is the set consisting of h1 together with the additional histories
History h2: “In round n the outcomes r = tails, \(z = + \frac{1}{2},\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\), and w = fail were observed.”
History h3: “In round n the outcomes r = heads, \(z = + \frac{1}{2},\;{\mathrm{and}}\;\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) were observed.”
History h4: “In round n the outcomes \(z = - \frac{1}{2},\;{\mathrm{and}}\;\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) were observed.”
History h5: “Outcome \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{fail}}}\) was observed.”
The CH formalism contains the Born rule as a special case and hence fulfils Assumption (Q). Since it also satisfies (S), it follows from Theorem 1 that it violates (C). To illustrate how this violation manifests itself, we may consider a shortened version of history h1, which leaves the values z and \(\overline w\) unmentioned:
History \(h_1^\prime\): “In round n the outcomes r = tails and w = ok were observed.”
The CH formalism provides a rule to assign probabilities to these histories, which turn out to be
Note that these probabilities disagree with the fact that \(h_1^\prime\) is just a part of history h1, i.e., \(h_1 \Rightarrow h_1^\prime\). (This finding may be compared to the “three box paradox”69, where calculations in three different consistent frameworks yield mutually incompatible probability assignments; see Section 22 of ref. 35 as well as 70 for a discussion.)
The CH formalism accounts for this disagreement by imposing the rule that logical reasoning must be constrained to histories that belong to a single framework, which is not the case for h1 and \(h_1^\prime\). To illustrate what this means, it is useful to return to the casino example described in the Discussion section above. Within a framework that contains history \(h_1^\prime\), the gambler’s reasoning is correct, for \(Pr[h_1^\prime ] = 0\). That is, w = ok implies that r = heads. Conversely, considering the framework above, which contains history h1, it is readily verified that the other histories, h2–h5, have probabilities \(\frac{1}{{12}}\), 0, 0, and \(\frac{5}{6}\), respectively. That is, all nonzero probability histories of this framework that agree with the observation \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) also assert that \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) and r = tails. This seems to be in agreement with the casino’s argument, i.e., \(\overline w = \overline {{\mathrm{ok}}}\) implies that \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) and r = tails. However, because the framework does not include a history that talks about r alone, it disallows the—seemingly obvious—implication \(\left( {r = {\mathrm{tails}}\;{\mathrm{and}}\;z = + \frac{1}{2}} \right) \Rightarrow \;r = {\mathrm{tails}}\). In other words, within the CH formalism, the casino can prove that r = tails and \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\), but not that r = tails.
Analysis within QBism
QBism is one of the most far-reaching subjectivistic interpretations of quantum mechanics. It regards quantum states as representations of an agent’s personal knowledge, or rather beliefs, about the outcomes of future measurements, and it also views these outcomes as personal to the agent.
To reflect these tenets of QBism in the analysis of the Gedankenexperiment, it is useful to imagine that the agents write their observations and conclusions into a personal notebook. For example, according to Table 3, when agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) gets r = tails in round n = 1, she may put down the following
Statement \(\overline {\mathrm{F}} ^{1:02}\):“r = tails at time 1:01, hence I am certain that we will hear W announcing w = fail at the end of this round.”
Here the phrase “is certain that” expresses a degree of belief and may also be replaced by something like “would bet an arbitrarily large amount on”. Similarly, agent F, when she gets \(z = + \frac{1}{2}\), may write into her notebook
Statement \({\mathrm{F}} ^{1:12}\):“\(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) at time 1:11, hence I am certain that, if I now checked \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s notebook, I would read that r = tails at time 1:01.”
Agent F may as well write about agent \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\)’s conclusions, i.e.,
Statement \({\mathrm{F}} ^{1:13}\):“\(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) at time 1:11, hence I am certain that, if I now checked \(\overline {\mathrm{F}}\) ’s notebook, I would read that she is certain that we will hear W announcing w = fail at the end of this round.”
Agent F may now be tempted to conclude from the above that
Statement \({\mathrm{F}} ^{1:14}\):“\(z = + \frac{1}{2}\) at time 1:11, hence I am certain that we will hear W announcing w = fail at the end of this round.”
However, permitting such implications is akin to assuming (C). Because QBism satisfies (Q) and (S), it would result in the agents issuing contradictory statements. The Gedankenexperiment is thus an example of a multi-agent scenario where, to ensure consistency of QBism, implications of the type \({\mathrm{F}}^{1:13} \Rightarrow {\mathrm{F}}^{1:14}\) must be disallowed. Nevertheless, there should be ways for agents to consistently reason about each other. One may therefore ask whether (C) could be substituted by another (weaker) rule that enables such reasoning but does not lead to contradictions. This question is currently being investigated (J.B. DeBrota, C.A. Fuchs, and R. Schack, manuscript in preparation).
Data availability
No data sets were generated or analysed during the current study.
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Acknowledgements
We would like to thank Yakir Aharonov, Mateus Araújo, Alexia Auffèves, Jonathan Barrett, Veronika Baumann, Serguei Beloussov, Charles Bennett, Hans Briegel, Časlav Brukner, Harry Buhrman, Adán Cabello, Giulio Chiribella, Roger Colbeck, Patricia Contreras Tejada, Giacomo Mauro D’Ariano, John DeBrota, Lídia del Rio, David Deutsch, Artur Ekert, Michael Esfeld, Philippe Faist, Aaron Fenyes, Hugo Fierz, Jürg Fröhlich, Christopher Fuchs, Shan Gao, Svenja Gerhard, Edward Gillis, Nicolas Gisin, Sheldon Goldstein, Sabrina Gonzalez Pasterski, Gian Michele Graf, Philippe Grangier, Bob Griffiths, Arne Hansen, Lucien Hardy, Aram Harrow, Klaus Hepp, Paweł Horodecki, Angela Karanjai, Adrian Kent, Gijs Leegwater, Matthew Leifer, Seth Lloyd, John Loverain, Markus Müller, Thomas Müller, Hrvoje Nikolić, Travis Norsen, Nuriya Nurgalieva, Jonathan Oppenheim, Sandu Popescu, Matthew Pusey, Gilles Pütz, Joseph Renes, Jess Riedel, Valerio Scarani, Rüdiger Schack, Robert Spekkens, Cristi Stoica, Antoine Suarez, Tony Sudbery, Stefan Teufel, Roderich Tumulka, Lev Vaidman, Vlatko Vedral, Mordecai Waegell, Andreas Winter, Stefan Wolf, Filip Wudarski, Christa Zoufal, and Wojciech Zurek for comments and discussions. This project was supported by the Swiss National Science Foundation (SNSF) via the National Centre of Competence in Research “QSIT”, by the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics (KITP) at the University of California in Santa Barbara, by the Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced Study (STIAS) in South Africa, by the US National Science Foundation (NSF) under grant No. PHY17-48958, by the European Research Council (ERC) under grant No. 258932, and by the European Commission under the project “RAQUEL”.
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Frauchiger, D., Renner, R. Quantum theory cannot consistently describe the use of itself. Nat Commun 9, 3711 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-05739-8
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DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-05739-8
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pjcamp
So Wigner's friend and his Neighbors.
The conclusion is kind of baked in from the beginning. The entire
analysis depends on the notion of wave function collapse. Wave function
collapse, as Bohr et. al. formulated it, intrinsically depends on a classical,
nonquantum, observer interacting with a quantum system. So proving that a
quantum observer is inconsistent with wave function collapse is, to me,
a circular argument. It is trivially true because that's what you
started with.
There is an interpretation of quantum mechanics
that treats the observer as a quantum object as well -- the many worlds
interpretation. In it, wave function collapse does not exist. Everything
is always in a superposition of states, both before and after
measurement. By taking away the collapse process you take away the
core of this argument as well since it intrinsically depends on being able to assign a definite value after measurement.
DS Replied to pjcamp
Yes, how does this pass peer review?
Agent F could just prepare S as she wants to, and F bar 02 statement is in trouble
davidbyrden Replied to pjcamp
> "The entire analysis depends on the notion of wave function collapse."
On the contrary. It depends on the wave function NOT collapsing.
For example, if qubit S arrives to agent F in the superposition state, the experiment depends on agent F going into a superposition - NOT collapsing S and getting just a single value.
Why? Because the paper states that W will read the state of F, in that case, as "fail" which implies that F is still in a superposition.
If the state of F were to collapse, then W would randomly read "fail" or "ok".
Do the math !
pjcamp Replied to davidbyrden
"Agent F flips a coin . . . "
I.e., the measurement is tied to a classical system.
davidbyrden Replied to pjcamp
I quote from the experimental procedure in Box 1:
"At n:00 Agent /F invokes a randomness generator (based on the measurement of a quantum system R ..."
In Figure 2 the authors refer to R as a "coin" but that's clearly just a figure of speech.
Doug
Of course, if you want to presume a random variable which determines the outcome of a mesaurement, then you quickly take yourself outside of ordinary quantum theory, and also you immediately make yourself vulnerable to all the standard worries about such an assignment. See Kochen and Specker and Gleason's theorem and others.
And so, while the authors may claim to have proven something about quantum theory itself, it seem to me all they've really done is shown another way that naive choice of hidden variables scheme leads to trouble.
David
It strikes me that the "ok" and "fail" operators are superpositions of large, macroscopic objects. Say I place a coin facing heads up on a table. You measure "ok" and find the coin is "ok". The experiment ends, everything decoheres, and now the coin is either heads or tails with p=0.5.
If instead of just a coin we have a human-coin pair ("ok" really measures the whole lab), then this measurement changes me from a human with a memory of staring at a coin facing heads up for the last ten minutes, into a human with a memory of staring at a coin tails up for the last ten minutes. The consequences of rolling heads can occur while my reasoning and memory says the only thing that ever happened was me rolling tails -- this isn't a contradiction, because the operator "ok" performed some invasive brain surgery on me!
I think this is the crux of the issue, but I would love to hear thoughts.
davidbyrden Replied to David
You're right about the "macroscopic objects". The states "ok" and "fail" are not the pure states of the agents F and /F. That is to say, if we crack the labs open, we will *never* find the agents in the "ok" or "fail" states. What would they look like? Double-exposed photos?
But... I think that's not the only way to measure the labs.
If the agents F, /F signal their state to W, /W by sending a qubit out of their lab, without breaking the "isolation" of the lab, then presumably they could remain in superposition inside there, and the qubit (e.g. a polarised photon) could carry information from both copies of the agent, and therefore it could represent their superposed state correctly.
Obviously the photons sent by both superposed versions of the agents would have to be very closely synchronised, so that information about their state is not carried implicitly. I'm not entirely sure I'm on the right track here, though, because the implication is that I can order an atomic clock off Amazon and collaborate with my own superpositions in parallel worlds.... ?
Anyway, my point is, this paper speaks about human "agents" but in a real implementation it would be quantum equipment.
Also, this experiment is almost exactly Hardy's Paradox, and I believe that has been tested.
Troy Replied to davidbyrden
It's a lot easier to just think of this thought experiment as a box with a tiny hole in it. The box can communicate via the tiny hole without collapsing its wavefunction entirely (no implicit reasoning possible) but the tiny hole will actually change the information being transmitted (uncertainty principle). I don't think the experimenters took into account the fact that you cannot communicate information perfectly. The time/energy of the message would change.
davidbyrden Replied to Troy
We can speculate all day, but we get our answers by doing the math.
stargene
In their statement, "..we find that one agent, upon observing a particular measurement outcome, must conclude that another agent has predicted the opposite outcome with certainty..." there is an odd parallel with entanglement's classic requirement that if one member of an entangled pair is measured UP, say, the other member's measure is by definition DOWN. As though both agents are 'merely' members of the same entangled pair! The only
difference being that each of F/R's agents in question can 'self-measure'.
davidbyrden Replied to stargene
There's no parallel at all.
Finding your particle to be "UP" and deducing that someone else's particle is "DOWN", is one thing.
But it's quite another thing when two people measure two different states on the SAME particle at the same time.
Fortunately, that's not what happened here. In this paper, one person has different expectations, because there is an error in his thinking.
truden
I'm working on logical problems and I'm not a physicist.
There is a rule in logic - between two contradictory statements only one could be true. If this rule is not obeyed we create a paradox (the Card paradox which assumes both statements as true)
Note that Schrodinger does not make a statement unless the system is observed.
However this experiment produces two contradictory statements to prove Schrodinger's conclusion wrong (!)
This cannot be done since only one of the statements could be true.
The fact that we don't know which one is true should not make us think that each of them could be true. This is a logical fallacy based on stereotypical thinking. It is only one which is true.
Needless to say that if the coin fell on one of its sides (e.g. the function collapsed) inside the box there is no logical base to argue its state after the fact. We have to open the box and observe the state of the coin. The information sent to the other box is irrelevant. This scenario has nothing to do with the set of Schrodinger's thought experiment.
davidbyrden Replied to truden
You should read about the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. It implies, quite naturally, that multiple contradictory statements can be true at the same time in different places.
However, that is not what's happening in this experiment. I discuss this experiment here;
http://byrden.com/quantum/c...
truden Replied to davidbyrden
Multiple contradictory statements cannot be true. We could have different measurements which we consider to be true, but the rule to which I'm referring does not apply to how we measure the subject, but what is the true state of the subject in its own space-time. Hence, the truth is only one.
Zulfiqar Ali
Not good in the detailed maths of quantum physics but the best guess here is that theoretically if reality breaks at quantum level and rebuilds at macroscopic level then not matter how many elements are in the box their behavior is quantum and wave function will describe superposition of others in the box ... Shrodinger's cat shot by poison radiation situation also acts in a unitary measurement resultant. If physicist inside the box who are communicating with each other at a level other than the box opener that must be a paradox of information loss, uncertainity principle holds the key here since probabilty applies with some range, and range here is acute since micro is macro for the observers in the box and they cannot be seen separately by the observers outside. I would imagine if two observers view the situation the same time the box opens and what would their observation be since the act of observation collapse the wave function and simple observation from different angles will decohere the result in two scenarios. The superpositon is a probabilistic result in microscopic world, but even in classical superposition results can be dauntingly confusing ... Like hearing sound waves of doppler effect or refraction of light observed with small variations even though they are classically predictable with greater certainity. Quantum physics is the best tool to look at micro world but may still be incomplete to go deeper or to explain the classical connections. This experiment is interesting since it does raise the question whether quantum intercommunication is a wave function after collapse or are the results constantly superimposing until a meaning is derived by a particular observer....
Ted
I believe I see a rather significant flaw in the reasoning. Perhaps I understand wrong, but none of the agents' reasoning, nor the equations describing those measurements or their consequences, take into account that the measurement at n:20 is announced before the measurement at n:30 is made. Yet all agents know the n:20 measurement will be announced at n:21.
The authors clearly reason that said announcement forces the last measurement to be "ok", so clearly all of the agents can deduce that as well. But it seems as if the authors argue that the agents will ignore that announcement (and its consequences on the state of the last measurement).
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
> "The authors clearly reason that said announcement forces the last measurement to be "ok" "
No, they don't assume that. All four combinations of "ok" and "fail" as measured by agents W and /W, are possible. It doesn't matter if W and /W announce their results or keep them secret.
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
> "The authors clearly reason that said announcement forces the last measurement to be "ok" "
They reach this result in between Table 4 and Box 2, which reads: "Agent W infers from this that statement Wn:28 of Table 3 holds in that round, i.e., he is certain that he will observe w = fail at time n:31. However, in this final round, he will nevertheless observe w = ok!"
If the authors can deduce from the chain of events that w=ok will be observed at n:31, then so can the agents. Unless I overlooked it, none of the state equations in the paper describe the measurement/announcement that happens at n:21. That interaction can not be ignored when trying to describe the experiment.
In other words, I explicitly disagree that it doesn't matter if /W announces the result or not, because any interaction before n:30 between /W and W that is in any way dependent on the result of /W's measurement at n:20 is itself a measurement by W. The authors clearly take it into account for their own reasoning, but fail to allow the various agents to do so.
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
Ah, I see. You misunderstood something and it confused me. I'll correct that:
In the case when /W announces "/ok", the authors' reasoning (which is also the agents' reasoning) leads them all to expect that W will measure "fail" ... not "ok" as you wrote.
See the last row of table 3, the first and last items.
So, why would anybody expect him to measure "ok" when the whole thrust of this paper is to convince us that he should see "fail" ?
The answer lies in Equation 7, which I think should have been explained in more detail by the authors. They call it "a simple calculation" but they're assuming that the reader is very familiar with quantum mechanics and will DO the calculation.
This is what they're telling us with equation 7:
If you step through the procedure, and keep track of the system state while doing so, you end up with an equation.
It's written in the "basis" of the coin and the qubit, and it gives you the odds that each of their four possible combinations will happen.
(If you're interested - one combination is impossible, and the other three are equally likely)
Now, you can convert this equation to another basis, namely the "ok - fail" basis where the final measurements are made. It's the same system, we're just measuring it differently.
The converted equation tells you that the W agents can read all 4 possible combinations of "ok" and "fail".
In particular, the combination "ok /ok" is possible, and it will happen one time in twelve on average. That's what the authors wrote down in equation 7.
All right?
Now, let's get back to your comment. The authors propose that we keep repeating this experiment, over and over, UNTIL the external agents measure "ok /ok". They must do so, on average , one time in twelve. It's random.
You were saying that interactions between W and /W were significant. Well, of course they are. Both agents will look at each other's measurements, and if they're not both "ok", they will somehow re-initialise the randomness generator and repeat the whole thing.
So, when they FINALLY both announce "ok", we take a look at the observations and the reasoning of the agents, and we see that agent W has reason to expect "fail", although he actually got "ok".
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Do you understand that there are two separate labs, L and /L, and the two agents W and /W are each measuring a single lab? And they don't measure anything until the system setup procedure is complete? It doesn't even matter in what order they do their measurements.
Really, this is a very simple quantum system. Four states. No changes of state. This paper makes it seem a lot more difficult than it is.
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
Thank you for the careful explanation, I'll try to describe more specifically where I see a problem.
As you say, both agents must announce their results, otherwise the experiment can't end. And I concur with your explanation of the equations.
If /W's announcement happens *after* the measurement at n:30, then I concur the (/ok, ok) result will happen 1/12 of the time. But in this case, the deductions by W in the last row of table 3 do not happen (and thus there is no inconsistency).
If /W's announcement does happen at n:21, then this is equivalent to W being involved in (or making) the /ok measurement before making the ok measurement. This is not described within the experiment's equations. It doesn't matter in this case that we are given that the end state (/ok, ok) happened, because the equations used to derive that it *can* happen are not complete.
I believe a set of equations that correctly includes the announcement made at n:21 will show that (/ok, ok) can never happen, but I won't claim to be certain of that.
Ted Replied to Ted
Actually, after more consideration, I suspect that the equations are also incomplete in the case where the announcement happens after the n:30 measurement - thus I am uncertain I concur that (/ok, ok) happens then also.
The reason for my uncertainty is as follows:
1. Before the n:30 measurement, L, /L and /W are entangled, and W's measurement affects the state of all three in concert. So /W's ability to announce /ok seems dependent on the result of W's measurement.
2. /W announcing before W removes /W's announcement from being a consequence of W's measurement, but L, /L and /W are still entangled, so W's measurement is affected.
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
The external agents can measure the labs in either order, as they please. The chance of { ok, /ok } is one twelfth in both cases.
Interestingly: the first measured lab has a one-in-six chance of being "ok" and the second one has a one-in-two chance of being "ok". That is true for BOTH ways around. The labs are entangled and the first measurement affects the second lab.
You were worried about the timing of the announcement. But it's irrelevant. Nobody needs to announce anything. The first measurement entangles an agent with the lab that he measured. The entanglement spreads throughout the world via the wave function and will affect what they measure at the second lab.
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
First, I completely agree with your first two paragraphs.
However, the timing of the announcement is very relevant. The announced result is used as part of the reasoning by agent W that eventually leads to a contradiction.
Without the announcement, agent W can't arrive at a deduction that is inconsistent with his measured end state. So all is well.
Also. there also wouldn't be a contradiction if instead agent /F correctly applied the equations given foreknowledge that an announcement would be made. Using said foreknowledge, I believe she would actually deduce that W is forced to measure ok, instead of fail.
In other words, the contradiction occurs because some agents assume no announcement while analyzing the state, while others rely on the announcement in their analysis.
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
You're partially correct. We need an announcement in order to finish. Without the announcement by agent /W, agent W will not be able to see the "contradiction".
But that doesn't make the *timing* of the announcement significant. He can use the same (faulty) logic either before or after he makes his measurement of lab L.
The second part of your post is confusing to me. I don't think the equations lead to the conclusion that you drew. But rather than do the math, I'll tell you how I see the situation.
We, and the agents, all have full knowledge of the system. We should all be able to apply the QM equations and arrive at the same result: namely, agent /W has a 1/6 chance of measuring "/ok", and if he does that, agent W then has a 1/2 chance of measuring "ok".
This is true before, during, and after the setup procedure. Whatever agent /F sees on her "randomness generator" should not influence her reasoning, because she should understand that it is a quantum system and it put her into a superposition. There is now a "heads" version of her and a "tails" version, and no matter which one she may be, she can AND MUST use both of them in her reasoning.
Her result should be the same regardless of whether anybody announces anything or not. It's a 2-qubit system in a known state. It was discussed many years ago by Hardy. The probability of "ok /ok" is one in twelve no matter what order you measure in and no matter who you are.
An agent inside a lab is in superposition. She exists in two copies. Both copies of that agent "see" a different system state because
1. they have implicitly "collapsed" their own lab from their own point of view (but, to an external observer, the lab is still in a superposition)
2. the labs are entangled, and "collapsing" one of them affects the other. Therefore, the lab L with reference to agent /F is unlike the lab L with reference to agent W. Agent /F should AND MUST use both copies of herself in her reasoning in order to calculate what agent W will really measure.
The agents are like the living copy of Schrodinger's cat, unable to see the dead copy, convinced that he's fully alive. If that cat has full knowledge of the box that he's in, then he can calculate the probability of Schrodinger meeting him again = 50%. But his OWN probability of meeting Schrodinger is 100%.
In the "many worlds" interpretation, the living cat is in a "world" but Schrodinger is in another "world", and Schrodinger will split into two Schrodingers when he opens the box.
In summary; different facts hold true at the same time in different places. Probabilities are conditional. "Many worlds" exist side by side. The paper contains faulty logic because it fails to acknowledge this.
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
I believe your description of how you see the situation is addressed by the authors in their analysis regarding how each of their different logical inferences (labelled Q, C and S) are required (or not) by different interpretations of quantum theory. I read that section closely enuf to see that was what they were doing, but not closely enuf to look for any flaws. It seems to me you are arguing for one of those specific interpretations to hold sway. I don't care about which interpretation is used because of where I see the flaw.
This is my understanding of the correct logic to apply, which makes the timing of the announcement important. Because agent W knows the result of /W's measurement, agent W sees the joint L, /L, /W system, prior to his measurement, in one of two states:
1) tails X up (if /ok announced)
2) heads X down + tails X down (if /fail announced)
We have to describe the system as divided into distinct states because agent W's measurement does not commute with agent /W's measurement (as explicitly stated in the Peer Review file, see second reply to reviewer 2). If instead /W's announcement was kept within the system until after W's measurement, then /W's announcement would be affected by (or constrained to be consistent with) W's result due to the same lack of commutativity.
To continue with my reasoning.... *Before* agent /F measures her coin, she knows when it comes time for W's measurement that agent W will see the system of labs in one of those two states, but can't predict which. If she sees tails, she can predict ok in both states 1 and 2 - if she sees heads, she can predict both /fail by /W (state 2) and ok by W. So in fact, she can predict W will get ok without even looking at her coin.
In short, given this set up, I would predict W to always measure ok if /W's measurement is known/shared ahead of time.
As an aside, since this seems to contradict my earlier agreeing with you on one point...
Note, while I agree that simply tracing the equations makes ok and fail equally likely after /ok is measured (and vice-versa if order reversed), my understanding is that that tracing requires the measurements to commute. As they don't commute, the logic is different.
Just to be sure we are otherwise on the same page, if we assume the operators commute, the end state is 1/12 chance for each of the three states where at least one of W, /W measures ok or /ok, and 3/4 chance of fail, /fail.
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
I will step through your latest post until I find an error.
Let's begin where agent /W announces his measurement, and agent W hears the announcement.
> "Because agent W knows the result of /W's measurement, agent W sees the joint L, /L, /W system, prior to his measurement, in one of two states:"
We were instructed to repeat the experiment until there's an "/ok" announcement. So I will ignore the option when "/fail" is announced.
> "1) tails X up (if /ok announced)"
Yes, if agent W uses the logic of Table 3, that's what he imagines the labs to contain at this time.
But there is an error in Table 3.
So he's wrong.
> "agent W's measurement does not commute with agent /W's measurement"
That's correct. The labs are entangled, so the first measurement will change the statistics of the (future) second measurement.
> "If instead /W's announcement was kept within the system"
Hold it! I don't know what you mean by "within the system".
When an outside agent makes a measurement, the system state changes (from his point of view).
But this isn't noticed by the agents INSIDE the labs.
"keeping a measurement inside the system" makes no sense to me. What could it possibly mean?
- if you ask the internal agents to measure themselves in their own basis (e.g. heads / tails) they will ALL say "I'm here. I'm alive. I exist"
Yes, all FOUR of them, all of the copies of F and /F in the different "worlds" of the many-worlds interpretations. All four of them feel "real" to themselves. That is NOT A MEASUREMENT. That changes nothing.
- If you ask the hidden agents to measure themselves in the "ok , fail" basis..... .well, they can't. Nobody can see themselves in a superposition of states!
So, when you say "keep the announcement within the system", I must interpret it as "don't make the measurement".
Let's carry on....
> " then /W's announcement would be affected by...W's result"
Actually that's true. We both seem to be back in agreement now. So I will continue....
> " If she sees tails, she can predict ok in both states 1 and 2"
Oh no she can't.
That's the exact spot where Renner and Frauchiger get it wrong.
She can't predict "ok" because SHE sees tails, but the OUTSIDE WORLD does not see tails.
With reference to the outside world, she's in a superposition. There are two copies of her. One saw "heads" and the other saw "tails".
Both copies of her will send a qubit, and these qubits will recohere and be indistinguishable by agent F. (the paper makes it clear that this must happen. I am not going to comment on whether it's theoretically possible.)
So, agent /F should NOT assume that her finding of "tails" will be the sole contributor to the final result. The other copy of her, who saw "heads", will also contribute.
Remember what I said; when you're in a superposition, you don't know it. You don't make a measurement just by looking at yourself. Other copies of you can still exist, IF you are in a perfectly sealed "lab" or a Schrodinger cat's "box".
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
1) To clarify... when I wrote, "If instead /W's announcement was kept within the system until after W's measurement, then /W's announcement would be affected by (or constrained to be consistent with) W's result due to the same lack of commutativity." this was meant to convey that withholding the result can be considered as equivalent to the entangled system becoming /W, L, /L from W's point of view, reflecting how the order of measurement matters. And as you say, we agree that /W's announcement would then be affected by W's result.
2) You seem to have ignored my point that, as I understand the experimental setup, I believe /F's correct reasoning is that W will always measure ok - because /W's measurement affects the system state. /F doesn't need to look at her coin to make that prediction, so it doesn't matter whether she reasons as if in superposition, or not.
3) In other words, I agree the authors make a mistake in asserting that /F reasons "I see tails, therefore W will measure fail". You may well have a valid point that the correct reasoning of anyone in /F's situation must take into account whether they appear to be in superposition, but unless I am sorely mistaken in my own reasoning, it doesn't matter here.
4) From what I can see, the authors' mistake is not that they incorrectly deduce the state as I described it in my last message, because their description in the section "Analysis within Bohmian mechanics" indicates I agree with them on that point. I believe their mistake is that they assert in that section that the measurements by /W and W do not affect each other, which is only valid if the labs /L and L are not entangled. But they seem to rely on that entanglement in Table 3 when asserting /W deduces that F measured +1/2 despite /W measuring lab /L (containing /F). I've actually written the authors for clarification on this point, but they are overwhelmed with questions.
davidbyrden Replied to Ted
1.
Ah, now I see what you mean by "if /W's announcement was kept within the system".
You would build a third lab for /W, and the measurement object coming from /F (probably a polarised photon) would go into this lab.
Then, /W would become entangled with /F but the entanglement would be confined to his own lab.
Later, you would open this third lab. The measurement would be "announced" in that way.
Well, why not just have /W delay his measurement? Instead of putting him in a third lab and then breaking it open? Same result.
---------------
2.
> "I believe /F's correct reasoning is that W will always measure ok"
If you're a visual person; draw the system state in 4 dimensional Hilbert space.
When the basis vectors are the 4 combinations of the pure states, the system state vector is equidistant from three of them and orthogonal to the fourth.
Now, substitute the "ok - fail" vectors as your basis. The state vector is close to one of them and distant, but equidistant, from the other three.
This is what the authors did at equation (7). The {ok, /ok} basis vector is one of the three distant ones.
Implying that the system state can "collapse" onto ANY of these four vectors. All combinations of "ok" and "fail" are possible. Their probabilities are 1/12, 1/12, 1/12. and 3/4.
That's what the agents should conclude if they apply the rules of quantum mechanics to their knowledge of the system BEFORE any measurements are made.
But what will agent /F conclude if she does her calculations AFTER the measurement by /W ? That's what you are talking about.
It doesn't matter. Quantum Mechanics is linear. We're deleting orthogonal components from a vector in 4-space.
The eventual result, after two measurements, MUST BE THE SAME. All four final measurement results must arise with the same probabilities no matter what order you measure in. Agent /F is wrong if she comes to any other conclusion at ANY time in the sequence.
------------------------------------
4.
> "they assert...that the measurements by /W and W do not affect each other, which is only valid if the labs /L and L are not entangled."
Well, the labs ARE entangled.
And when you make one of these measurements, it affects the statistics of the other measurement which you haven't made yet.
So they seem to be wrong there.
But as far as I can see, their one and only critical error is having agent /F ignore her superpositioned twin.
Ted Replied to davidbyrden
Apologies for 3 replies in relatively short order, this paper still vexes me. Upon rereading it (yet) again, and also reading more carefully the reviewer comments, I would slightly modify my concern, and state it as follows:
1. The measurements made by /W and W do not commute (stated by authors in the review file)
2. The reasoning at time n:1 by agent /F that W will get fail at n:31 appears to assume W's n:30 measurement is measuring the same system state as measured by /W at n:20.
If I'm not mistaken by 2, then these two statements are incompatible. Since agent /F knows the system will be affected by /W's measurement, then /F must take that effect into account when deciding whether W will later get ok or fail. But, as best I can tell, that's not how the authors describe /F's reasoning.
I also just noticed your link describing the issue you see. I suspect your description of the issue at least somewhat ignores the authors consideration of the different methods of interpretation and systems of inference that can be employed. But it feels otherwise like we are describing the same flaw.
truden
My first comment was kind of rushed but after few days of thinking I still cannot understand the logic behind this experiment.
The box with the coin cannot be assumed as in quantum state after the coin landed. The fact that the outside agent doesn't know whether the coin landed or on which side it landed should not make us view the box as in quantum state. The result of the coin toss was already observed and it is known. The rest is belief based on information (cannot say that it is guess because it would be random pick)
Think of quantum state as of cookie. It could have any taste. You could have the written information about the taste, but you'd still not know the taste. Yet, the cookie is there in front of you waiting for you to bite it and "collapse" the taste in your mouth. Before that you think that the cookie could have any taste, but it is only one - the taste in your mouth. Now, there is a mind-boggling question; is the taste the same for all who taste the cookie?
We could never know that.
And probably this is the answer for this experiment.
davidbyrden Replied to truden
> "The box with the coin cannot be assumed as in quantum state after the coin landed"
Ah, but it can.
If you're INSIDE the box, then you will see a single face of the coin, that is true.
But if you're OUTSIDE the box (and it is a hypothetical ideal perfect box) then the quantum state of the coin has spread to infect the entire contents of the box. The agent within the box is in "superposition" of two states.
This is basic quantum mechanics.
truden Replied to davidbyrden
The basic is "we don't know until we observe (measure)".
Once the wave function is collapsed it is no longer in superposition.
Let me make it a bit more clear for all scientists who have no clue about philosophy and who are missing basic concepts and ideas.
To observe (measure) is to gain knowledge about the subject of your observation. If you measure (observe) then you KNOW (you have knowledge about the state of the subject). If you don't measure, you don't know UNLESS the state is defined through other means or made known to us by definition.
What we know in this thought experiment is that there is a box with an agent in it who sees a coin landed on one of its sides. We KNOW it without measuring, because it is defined in the experiment.
We cannot undo this knowledge by arguing that it is not true because it is not measured from outside the box.
It is also ridiculous to think of the box as of a system in quantum state, but even so, then there either would be a box with an agent inside who sees (measures) a coin landed on one of its sides, or there would not be a box at all.
So, even a though experiment must be built on a common sense and not ignoring basic mind concepts.
Troy
Can someone explain this to me? Why would Bob disagree with Alice's message? Isn't she a quantum system similar to a box with a tiny hole in it? Bob is looking at the hole waiting for her system to collapse and provide a beam of some sort to tell him something about the way Alice collapsed. The box with the hole in it has a time limit so it will collapse at a certain time. It may have even already collapsed from the beginning just from that for-knowledge of when it will collapse, ironically. The experimenters knowing when they get the message breaks the experiment, imo.
davidbyrden Replied to Troy
This entire experiment depends on the contents of the two labs NOT collapsing. At all.
The procedure starts with the randomness generator, which is in a superposition. The procedure ends with W measuring lab L, whose contents must be in a superposition, otherwise it won't work.
There is no collapse of any waveform unless you're *inside* a lab.
Chris Becke
Here it breaks: "The basic idea underlying the Gedankenexperiment we present here is to make some of the information about z available to the outside—but without lifting the isolation of L. Roughly, this is achieved by letting the initial state of S depend on a random value, r, which is known to another agent outside of L."
I think the fallacy is to believe that random values can be used like this in Quantum theories. Basically a random number generator is like maxwells daemon: As the daemon is inextricably entangled with the entropy of the system it is sorting, so here random number generators entangle quantum state with consumers of their output as computation necessarily produces entanglement: i.e. anyone who has knowledge of r is part of the state of L.
davidbyrden Replied to Chris Becke
The "agent outside of L" is the agent inside the other lab.
The only communication from L to this other agent, is the qubit S.
The experiment is designed so that S doesn't carry the entire state of L. It carries partial information about L and causes the other agent to be partially entangled.
But, since the other agent is also in a perfectly isolating lab, that doesn't break the experiment as you suggested.
davidbyrden
As far as I can see, there's an error in this reasoning, which I discuss here;
http://byrden.com/quantum/c...
davidbyrden
I'm analysing this Gedankenexperiment and I have a question. I think I know the answer but I'd like someone who has qualifications in QM to tell me what it is.
Agent /F goes into superposition when she becomes entangled with the randomness generator.
She prepares a qubit which is sent to the other lab.
This qubit is not in her own state, but it's in a state related by a unitary. We can implement that with a machine on the route connecting her lab to the other lab. In that case, agent /F sends out the qubit in her own quantum state.
So, agent /F is left sitting in her lab, waiting to be measured, in her own quantum state.Meanwhile the qubit is on its way to the other lab, and it's in the same quantum state.
I think that runs foul of the No Cloning Theorem.
I think that the only way around this is for agent /F to read the randomness generator and deliberately set up the qubit in the appropriate state. I think it's impossible for the randomness generator's state to "pass through" undisturbed while the agent reads it.
Why does this matter? Because I want to confirm that reading the state of /F does not collapse the state of F. I want to be clear that they are two unconnected states.
Thank you in advance.
davidbyrden Replied to davidbyrden
Update; I now can see that F and /F are entangled, and "measuring" either one of them will change the state of the other. That question is settled in my mind.
But I'm still not quite sure that the experiment can be set up as described, with both "copies" of agent F sending a qubit to agent /F, and the latter being unable to discern which "copy" sent it.
I mean, that requires the two superpositioned "copies" of /F to collaborate. Their qubits would have to be, in some cases, indistinguishable. They would have experienced decoherence after reading the "coin" so this would be recoherence.
Is this possible in theory?
Art Hobson
In their second paragraph, the authors refer to Schrodinger's cat, describing it as "a superposition of two macroscopically entirely different states, one in which which the cat is dead and one in which it is alive." Readers are left with the impression that quantum theory actually predicts such a superposition as a result of a simple macroscopic measurement. But a recently-published article shows that Schrodinger was wrong: During the past several decades, new discoveries regarding nonlocality and entanglement, unknown in Schrodinger's day, have provided new insight into the quantum measurement process. The entangled state of Schrodinger's cat is a non-paradoxical superposition of correlations between the cat and the nucleus, rather than a paradoxical superposition of states of the cat (dead and alive) or of states of the nucleus (decayed and undecayed) or of both (dead/decayed and alive/undecayed). See A. Hobson, "Review and suggested resolution of the problem of Schrodinger's cat," Contemporary Physics 58, 16-30 (2018); also available at arXiv: 1711.11082.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
You seem to be arguing (in your paper) against "collapse of the quantum".
You're in good company there. Others have rejected "collapse" and have created interpretations of QM that lack the "collapse" feature.
But on page 1 you say:
"collapse is a standard principle of quantum physics"
I'm afraid not. There is no "collapse" implicit in the equations of QM, and neither are there "observers", "macroscopic size" or "measurement". All of these things are features of the Copenhagen Interpretation, but they are not part of QM itself.
You are arguing against the Copenhagen interpretation, not against standard quantum mechanics.
And I don't think that your argument holds water. On page 9 you say:
"there is an inconsistency within quantum physics, because it obviously cannot be this easy to create a macroscopic superposition."
Well, why not? Because we've never seen one?
The problem here is that the detector becomes entangled with the quantum (just like you said), and then the laboratory becomes entangled with the detector, and then the scientist becomes entangled with the laboratory. In fact, reflected photons from the detector are sufficient to entangle you with it.
So, why have we never seen a macroscopic superposition? Because it's impossible? Or because we ourselves are in the same superposition? The equations of QM imply the latter answer.
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
Response to davidbyrden:
Thanks for reading my Contemporary Physics paper. It actually argues FOR the collapse of the quantum state. It argues that collapse of the quantum state is real, that it occurs within the standard rules of quantum physics, and shows how it occurs. Thus collapse need not be postulated as a separate principle of quantum physics. Collapse occurs whenever a quantum (e.g. an electron or photon) entangles with a macroscopic system. This is shown in Table 1 of my paper: If a photon is in a superposition state prior to entanglement, then entanglement with a second sub-system instantly puts the photon into a mixture (rather than a superposition) of definite outcomes, and transfers the superposition (i.e. the coherence) to the new nonlocal correlations between the photon and the second sub-system. The state of the photon itself has collapsed.
Yes, I am arguing against the Copenhagen interpretation, not against standard quantum mechanics.
Regarding your argument in the last half of your comment (beginning "And I don't think ..."): My paper points out that, experimentally, Schrodinger's cat will not be found to be in a superposition of "alive" and "dead." Here are the evidence: When quantum measurements are carried out, we never find the measuring device to be in a superposition of the possible outcomes. In the case of Schrodinger's cat, the cat is the measuring device.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
>> "we never find the measuring device to be in a superposition of the possible outcomes."
Sorry if I did not make myself clear. Consider this;
A particle is in a superposition of the states "UP" and "DOWN".
We "measure" it. There is no collapse. Rather, the measuring instrument goes into a superposition of states "I measured UP" and "I measured DOWN".
The instrument is in contact with the laboratory. Therefore the laboratory goes into a superposition.
The laboratory is in contact with the scientist. Therefore the scientist goes into a superposition. There are now two copies of the scientist, thinking "I see UP" and "I see DOWN"
Notice that neither of the scientists see a superposition. They both see a definite single value displayed on a single instrument. This is exactly what you required.
Nothing has "collapsed", rather everything has "exploded" into two copies.
How could you argue against that? The equations of QM are consistent with it.
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
I disagree with your list of considerations. In your fourth paragraph, you say: "We measure it. There is no collapse. Rather, the measuring instrument goes into a superposition ...." This is incorrect. As I showed in my paper referred to earlier (Art Hobson, "Review and suggested resolution of the problem of Schrodinger's cat," Contemporary Physics 59, 16-30 (2018); also available at arXiv: 1711.11082), measurements always result in collapses to definite outcomes, not superpositions of different outcomes. This conclusion is based on standard quantum physics.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
Without referring me to your quite long and detailed paper, can you say briefly why the experiment's oberver should not himself go into a superposition of two states?
I simply don't see why the entanglement should stop at the measuring instrument.
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
David - Your two sentences ask two really good questions. Together, they comprise the quantum measurement problem. Your first question is usually called the "problem of definite outcomes," or the "Schrodinger's cat problem." When a measuring device M measures a superposed quantum system S, quantum theory predicts that S and M become entangled. For example, if S is a spin system initially in a superposition |up> + |down> of its possible spin states, and M is an apparatus that can "measure" the spin of S (i.e. M can determine whether the spin is "up" or "down" and register that result macroscopically), then quantum theory predicts the state of the composite system just after the measurement to be the entangled state
|psi> = |up> |M indicates "up"> + |down> |M indicates "down">.
This seems paradoxical because it appears to be a state in which M itself is in a superposition of indicating "up" and also indicating "down. Thus the outcome appears to be indefinite--neither up nor down, implying that the measurement did not accomplish its purpose. If the measuring device is a cat rigged up to die if the outcome is "down" and to live if the outcome is "up", then |psi> appears to include a dead-and-alive cat. Such a macroscopic superposition would be very difficult if not impossible to achieve in practice. Something is wrong.
Your second question asks why the entanglement should stop with the measurement by M. This is equivalent to asking how the measurement can yield a single specific outcome such as "down", because a single (i.e. non-superposed) state |down> cannot be further entangled. I refer to this as the "problem of irreversibility," because a final, macroscopically-recorded single outcome is thermodynamically irreversible (i.e. the measurement has increased the entropy of the universe and thus this measurement cannot be run in reverse without outside help).
My paper, "Review and suggested resolution of the problem of Schrodinger's cat," Contemporary Physics 59, 16-30 (2018); also posted at arXiv 1711.11082, resolves the problem of definite outcomes. Briefly, here's how:
Entanglement is more subtle than physicists had thought. In order to understand such states, one must take into account the many entanglement experiments that have been done since the theoretical work of John Bell in 1964 and the experimental work of Clauser (1972), Aspect (1982), and many others. This work studies entangled pairs of quantum system, such as two entangled photons A and B. It investigates what happens when one varies the "quantum phase" of either A or B. One consequence of these experiments is the verification of the phenomenon known as "non-locality," which had been theoretically predicted by John Bell in 1964. Another consequence, less well known unfortunately, is the discovery that entangled states such as
|theta> = |A1> |B1> + |A2> |B2>
(where |A1> and |A2> are two states of A and similarly for B) are not superpositions of A nor of B. They are merely superpositions of the correlations that exist between A and B. So entangled states are not superpositions of their subsystems, but are instead superpositions of correlations between their two subsystems. When applied to the state |psi> above, this implies that |psi> simply represents a superposition of two correlations:
"Up" is 100% correlated with "A indicates up" AND "down" is 100% correlated with "A indicates down".
The word "AND" indicates the superposition. This is not paradoxical, and it does not involve a superposition of either subsystem. It is entirely equivalent to the following:
The photon is in the up state if and only if A indicates "up", AND the photon is in the down state if and only if A indicates "down."
This is precisely what we want from a measurement, and is not paradoxical. This resolves the problem of definite outcomes.
My response to the problem of irreversibility is discussed non-mathematically in my paper "Realist analysis of six controversial quantum issues," to be published by Springer in 2019 in a book titled "Mario Bunge: A Centenary Festschrift." A full discussion with the math is included in a paper I have submitted to the American Journal of Physics; a preprint titled "Quantum realism is consistent with quantum facts" is posted at arXiv 1810.08638. Here is a brief summary:
The question is, how does the preceding entangled state |psi> collapse into a single one of its two definite outcomes? In part, the answer follows from a mathematical analysis of the state |psi>. This analysis asks: "Regardless of the correlations between S and M, what will be observed if one simply observes S, and what will be observed if one simply observes M?" The predicted answers are: If one observes S, one will find that S is in either the state |up> or the state |down>, and if one observes M, one will find that M is in either the state |M indicates "up"> or the state |M indicates "down">. Furthermore, the full entangled state |psi> correctly predicts that the single result found for S must agree with the single result found for M. This is exactly what we want. The key quantum fact here is that the states of both S and M are "either/or" states; they predict that just one of M's options will register and not both.
Entangled states such as |theta> above, involving simple quantum systems such as individual photons, are reversible. But if M is a macroscopic detector, then the outcome is predicted by the second law of thermodynamics to be irreversible. To understand this, think of (say) a photon detector: It is typically triggered by the excitation of a single electron in one (we've already seen that it's never both) of the possible experimental outcome channels (such as "up" and "down", or "live cat" and "dead cat"). That single electron then triggers an avalanche of electrons, eventually resulting in a macroscopic electric current. Such amplification processes are many-body, complex, and unique (the details are different on different trials)--exactly the kind of process that the second law of thermodynamics is all about: for all practical purposes, it's impossible to reverse such processes.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
I'm sorry, but I did not make my question clear.
When I asked "Why should the entanglement stop at the instrument", what I meant was;
"Why should the entanglement stop at the instrument? Why should it not continue, so that the desk becomes entangled, and then the floor, and then the observer?"
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
I've already done my best to answer that above, in my previous reply. Briefly, the answer is that the entanglements end when one of the entangled sub-systems is macroscopic, because of irreversibility, i.e. because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which applies to macroscopic processes. Since a "quantum measurement" means an entanglement of a microscopic system with a macroscopic system (a "detector"), a measurement causes a collapse to a single specific outcome in both the microscopic system and the detector, and hence there can be no further entanglements.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
I can't understand how your interpretation would explain Young's Slits.
I will assume that you're familiar with that experiment.
If I understand you correctly, you consider the detector screen to be a macroscopic object. Therefore, the impact of the particle on the screen is a "measurement" and should cause a collapse to a single outcome.
After passing through the double slit, the particle was in this state:
|left slit> / √2 + |right slit> / √2
So now, if I understand you correctly, there should be a "collapse" to either "left" or "right" states, immediately upon impact with the screen.
And in that case, there will be no interference. There will be "left" photons, there will be "right" photons, and both groups will illuminate the screen in a uniform glow, but they will not interfere.
That's what I get when I apply your rules to the experiment. Where did I go wrong?
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
I always like the double-slit experiment. It seems to demonstrate nearly all the difficult quantum principles. Your question is central to the entire measurement problem. The state (|left slit> + |right slit>)/√2 is not an entangled state. It is a simple superposition describing one photon passing through both slits, which it can do because the photon is a spatially extended field. When that field arrives at the screen, it is in an interference state that spreads over the entire screen. The field (i.e. the photon) then entangles with the surface atoms of the entire screen. For the mathematical form of this entanglement, see my paper "There are no particles, there are only fields," American Journal of Physics 81, pp. 211-221 (2013).
As a result of this entanglement, the state of the photon and the state of the screen both collapse to a single small, atom-sized region of the screen and we see a small flash of light within that region. Note that the uncertainty principle prevents the photon from collapsing to a single point--it is always extended over some spatial region, however small it might be.
You can create the "left slit, right slit" pattern you mention by placing a "which-slit detector" at the slits. Such a detector entangles with the photon as it passes through the slits, to create the entangled state
(|left slit> |detector indicates left slit> + |right slit> |detector indicates right slit>)/√2
This entanglement collapses the composite state to a mixture of either coming through the left slit, or coming through the right slit. Then, when this mixture arrives at the viewing screen, it again entangles with the screen and collapses but the pattern it follows while collapsing is not the 2-slit interference pattern but rather the entanglement-created mixture of coming through one or the other slit. That's why we see a 2-slit interference pattern when there is no which-slit detector, but the sum of two single-slit patterns when there is a which-slit detector.
You ask "Where did I go wrong?" The mistake happened when you failed to recognize that, in order for the state (|left slit> + |right slit>)/√2 to collapse into two single-slit patterns, it must first entangle with a which-slit detector placed at the slits. Max Schlosshauer has a nice discussion of this situation in his excellent book "Decoherence" (Springer Pub. Co. 2007, pp. 63-65).
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
Thank you for that long answer. But I still have trouble getting it straight in my head.
You're saying that the photon (in this experiment) will collapse twice, when detectors are present at the slits.
You say that when detectors are encountered, the composite state (of a single photon) collapses to a "mixture" of right and left routes, but they don't interfere.
And then you assert a second collapse, when this "mixture" hits the screen.
How does that model explain the "quantum erasure" experiment, where the photon's route gets detected, but the detector information is quickly erased, and interference occurs?
Art Hobson Replied to davidbyrden
I have no problem about spending time on long answers, because I'm retired from being a "professor," have plenty of time, and love to discuss quantum physics.
Your first four sentences (paragraphs) are exactly right. Anytime a microscopic quantum object entangles with a macroscopic object, that's a "measurement." And every time this happens, the quantum object's state collapses to one of its previously-superposed states. Thus, a photon passing through a double slit with no detector at the slits does not collapse at the slits, but it does collapse when it entangles with the macroscopic screen, leading to the interference pattern. On the other hand, a photon passing through a double slit with a detector at the slits will entangle with that detector and thus collapse into an "either/or" state of coming through one or the other slit rather than both. When this photon arrives at the final detection screen and entangles with the screen, it contributes to the non-interfering (or "mixed state") pattern seen on the screen after many trials.
The quantum eraser experiment in interesting, but I think it's a distraction--a kind of quirky gimmick--from the serious business of trying to figure out how measurement really works. Thus, I haven't spent much time analyzing it.
The key point about measurement is that it happens when a quantum object entangles with a macroscopic object or "detector." The entanglement causes the quantum object and also the detector to collapse into "local mixtures" of definite outcomes. The key thing that the quantum foundations community has been missing in their analyses of all this is the importance of nonlocality in studying measurements. The entangled state is nonlocal, which explains a lot about this state. I wish this could be communicated more fully to physicists. I'm hoping my paper "Quantum realism is consistent with quantum facts" (posted at arXiv: 1810.08638) can accomplish some of this.
Art Hobson
In my exchange, just below, with davidbyrden, I only addressed the question of Schrodinger's cat, because the second paragraph of Frauchiger & Renner's (F&R) article leaves the mistaken impression that there is no solution to the dilemma posed by his cat example. Briefly, my response (below) is that, in light of what we know today about nonlocality, there is a solution to the cat dilemma. The solution is presented in my paper, "Review and suggested resolution of the problem of Schrodinger's cat," Contemporary Physics 58, 16-30 (2018) (also available at arXiv: 1711.11082) and two other papers cited below in my exchange with davidbyrden.
Here, I want to challenge the basic thrust of F&R's paper. Using a superposition of the "up" and "down" spin states of a silver atom as their example, they argue that Eq. (2) follows from the linearity of quantum physics, and that Eq. (3) then follows as a consequence of (2). However, prior to the processes described by (2), agent F has measured the vertical spin of the silver atom and found it to be in a definite collapsed state, namely either "up" or "down" as described by (1). This measurement collapsed the spin superposition into one of its two components. This collapse is real and objective, as shown in my paper cited above. Thus the process described by (2), surmised by W, does not occur. Eq. (2) might represent W's best guess, but this guess is incorrect because the atom's state has already collapsed and thus cannot evolve into a superposition. The basic flaw in F&R's reasoning lies in the assumption that quantum physics is always linear. Linearity holds only so long as there are no measurements. But F's measurement is an entanglement between the silver atom and a macroscopic measurement device, followed instantly by a collapse to either the "up" or "down" state of the atom, and this is not a linear process. Even in a perfectly isolated composite system (the silver atom and its measuring device), a non-linear collapse occurs upon measurement.
Thus the conclusion of F&R's paper is based on a faulty assumption, and the paper's attempt to prove that quantum physics is inherently inconsistent fails.
Art Hobson
Does anybody out there disagree with my conclusion, presented just below, that the paper by Frauchiger & Renner fails because the "Wigner's friend" argument fails? My argument (and surely the argument of many who have thought about Wigner's friend) is simply that the friend collapses the quantum system into one of its definite states. This final single definite state is an objective fact, although F&R, in Eqs. (2) and (3), treat it as though it were not an objective fact.
davidbyrden Replied to Art Hobson
I disagree, because you didn't properly answer my question re: erasure.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
Regarding definite states, macroscopic superpositions and violations of Bell's theorem, here are links to papers you might find to be of interest:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1804.0...
http://vixra.org/pdf/1701.0...
Here is a link to some discussions concerned with improving the detection efficiency even further, while simultaneously reducing any small differences between the experimental and theoretical results, such as those noted by Walker:
https://fqxi.org/community/...
As I have pointed out to Walker, the error curve that he obtained, for a small difference between the experimental classical curve and the theoretical quantum correlation curves, is dominated by the fifth harmonic of the Fourier series for the classical curve, which is precisely what would be expected, given that the simple, first experimental approximation merely attempted to attenuate the third harmonic in the classical curve, leaving the fifth as the dominant source of error.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
Can you please explain the correlation formula, that is, equation (1) in this paper:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1701.0...
I do understand the meaning of each term in it, but I don't understand how it represents "correlation". Maybe my statistics knowledge is lacking. Thank you.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
Here is a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
Thank you, but that's not the same formula. Examine them closely, You'll see the differences.
Did Colin Walker accurately print the formula that your software used? I have been thinking about it, and I just don't get it.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
The formula on page 4 of my paper is the same as this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
But what's the formula that your software uses, to calculate those graphs of yours?
Because I'm looking at two formulas, apparently some kind of mistake was made by somebody and it was not noticed.
So I want to be very sure that I'm studying the formula that the software actually used.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
The equation on page 4, is the same equation as Line 150 in the Matlab code on page 9. It looks like Walker made a typo in his paper.
Bear in mind that the code being executed to produce Figures 1 and 2, is identical. The very different results are due entirely to the "if" statement (lines 25-34) that feeds different noise amplitudes and threshold values into the code. In other words, it is the nature of the "coins", not the model in the code, that is responsible for the different results.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
I don't agree with your mathematics.
I don't think your "thresholding" has the neutral effect that you claim.
You state:
"The Numerator effects the shape of the correlation curve, but the denominator only effects its normalization"
In other words, you think that "thresholding" discards the same percentage of measurements at all phase angles.
Have you checked your assumption? I predict that you will find about twice as many discards when the phase is 90 or 270 degrees, as when it is 0 or 180.
Therefore the denominator does not only effect normalisation as you stated.
And the unwanted effects are not confined to the denominator. They are also found in the numerator.
I predict that you will find "thresholding" preferentially discards polarity mismatches, and preserves polarity matches, when the phase angle is small.
In fact, for phase angles of just a few degrees, I predict that "thresholding" will discard almost all mismatches.
Unless "thresholding" corresponds to something in the real quantum world (and I don't think so), it does not belong in the experiment because it skews the results.
I haven't run your Matlab software but that's how the math looks to me. One should be suspicious of any experiment if one must add a spurious feature, and tune it "just so", to get the desired results.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
"In other words, you think that "thresholding" discards the same percentage of measurements at all phase angles." No. The entire point is the exact opposite - "Fair Sampling" does not occur.
"Unless "thresholding" corresponds to something in the real quantum world (and I don't think so)" Think again. It is why the Bell tests are never able to detect many of the particles.
"I haven't run your Matlab software" Obviously.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what Bell's theorem is all about. It is a statement about the nature of the classical realm. It is not a statement about quantum theory. It states that no classical process WHATSOEVER will ever be able to replicate OBSERVED quantum results.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
The theorem says;
"No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics."
Not a word about "classical".
Anyway, here's what your software does;
You try to simulate the measurement of entangled particles.
You simulate particles and measuring devices. Your simulations are based on assumptions that I consider questionable. But I won't question them now.
You create two simulated particles with built-in matching polarisation. That's your "local hidden variable".
Your diagrams show the QM predictions (blue line) and your results (red line). Your intent is to match the blue line with the red line.
Figure 1 shows the starting point. Your red line indicates "classical" correlations which are different to the quantum ones.
Then you add noise (Figure 12). Your red line is now LESS like the blue line.
Then you tell your detectors to reject a specific subset of the measured particles (thresholding). Hey presto, now your red line resembles the blue line! Have you not reproduced the predictions of quantum mechanics?
No.
Because the blue line is the prediction for noiseless, 100% efficient detection. The blue line represents ALL particles being measured.
But your red line excludes a significant fraction of the particles.
I can easily prove that the particles you excluded are not randomly chosen, but rather, they skew the results in your desired direction.
You should calculate the predictions of Qm measurements when THEIR detectors, like yours, exclude particles under the same "threshold". Or you should quit "thresholding".
At the moment you are comparing apples and oranges .... ideal noiseless QM results versus your own noisy, filtered results.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
You clearly do not understand what the EPR paradox and Bell's theorem is about.
'You create two simulated particles with built-in matching polarisation. That's your "local hidden variable" '. Creating and measuring such "entangled" entities is what the EPR paradox is all about. Hidden variables are something else entirely, invoked in an attempt to explain the statistics observed when such entangled entities are observed.
"You are excluding a significant fraction of the particles." Of course I am. That is what the detection loophole is all about. Physicists have spent the past half-century trying to close this very loophole, in THEIR experiments. They KNOW they are only detecting a fraction of the particles in THEIR experiments, and have worried for 50 years, that the fraction they fail to detect do not behave in the same manner as those that they do detect (AKA fair sampling). My results merely demonstrate that their worry is very, very, well-founded; 50 years of efforts have failed to close this loop-hole; contrary to recent claims stating otherwise. As you have noted, Bell's theorem pertains to "hidden variables" (like a loaded-dice, in which a hidden weight, that cannot be seen, nevertheless manifests itself, by changing the statistics of dice-throws). But there is no hidden variable in the "coins" - there are no variables at all, hidden or otherwise.
"I can easily prove that the particles you excluded are not randomly chosen, but rather, they skew the results in your desired direction." Wonderful! You have just rediscovered the detection loophole, that has been well-known for half a century, and at the heart of every Bell experiment conducted; and which is being exploited "to the hilt" in my work, and in a manner never anticipated as even a remote possibility, even after five decades of attempting to "cover all the bases."
Because of the detection loophole, theorists, long ago, attempted to deduce what fraction of the particles need to be detected, in order to conclude that no classical system, analogous to loaded-dice (a hidden variable) could reproduce the observed statistics. The problem has been, that for decades, the experimentalists could never detect a fraction anywhere near as high, as the theorists said was required. But my result demonstrates that the theorists got it wrong; the observed statistics can be reproduced by a very peculiar, classical system, in spite of the fact that it is also detecting a greater fraction of the entangled entities, than should ever be possible - in their theory.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
"You should calculate the predictions of Qm measurements when THEIR detectors, like yours, exclude particles..." That has already been done - fifty years ago. The QM experiments do not match QM's own predictions, without excluding particles. That is precisely the problem (AKA detection loophole) that they have been struggling with for the past fifty years. But if you wish to continue to pursue the matter, the webpages devoted to discussing the papers cited, would be more appropriate than this page.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
Can you link me to an appropriate page, please.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
For the paper "How Well Do Classically Produced Correlations Match Quantum Theory?":
http://vixra.org/abs/1701.0621
For the paper "A Classical System for Producing “Quantum Correlations”:
http://vixra.org/abs/1609.0129
Rob McEachern
"This indicates that quantum theory cannot be extrapolated to complex systems, at least not in a straightforward manner."
Actually it can. The problem is, all the modern, standard interpretations of quantum theory, have implicitly assumed that quantum theory is describing the behaviors of the entities being observed. But the results are perfectly consistent with a much older, now neglected interpretation, that the theory is actually only describing the behavior of experimental processes for detecting entities, rather than the behavior of the entities per se. Hence, how the observer DECIDES to go about the measurement process, will necessarily impact the result, independent of any property of the entities attempting to be observed.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
I really thought that standard, mainstream QM made it quite plain that your choice of measurement technique does impact the result.
Can you give an example of what you're telling us?
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
See my reply, to your reply to Art Hobson.
When an observer decides to measure all six sides of a two-sided coin (mistakenly believing he was measuring a dice) weird correlations between the measurements will result, when they are interpreted as pertaining to dice.
Einstein was correct: God does not play dice. But he does flip coins.
Rob McEachern
"Assumption (Q) captures the universal validity of quantum theory (or,
more specifically, that an agent can be certain that a given proposition
holds whenever the quantum-mechanical Born rule assigns probability-1
to it)...
The theorem itself is neutral in the sense that it does not tell us which of
these three assumptions is wrong."
Assumption (Q) is the problem. It can be shown that the Born rule can be derived from a very different assumption - namely that quantum theory is not in fact universal; it only describes the statistics of actually detected entities, and says nothing at all about those that remain undetected. That is the ultimate detection loophole: quantum theory is not describing waves and/or particles at all. It is merely describing the statistics of a specific type of process for detecting the energy associated with such entities - an energy-detecting filter-bank.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
So, how would you resolve the apparent contradiction in the experiment, then?
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
From the Abstract: "Here, we propose a Gedankenexperiment to investigate the question whether quantum theory can, in principle, have universal validity. The idea is that, if the answer was yes, it must be possible to employ quantum theory to model complex systems..."
"the answer to the question" is no, not yes. Because assumption Q is not valid, the assumption that QM is universal, is also not valid. QM only describes the act of detecting whatever tiny fraction of reality, a given experiment happens to detect. It says nothing at all, about any of the "complex systems" throughout the universe, that remain undetected by any given experiment - unless you assume Fair-sampling - that the things you actually managed to detect, are entirely representative of all those that you did not. It is like election prediction, declaring the winner, after only 1% of the vote has been counted. It will be a valid prediction, if the other 99% behave exactly the same as the 1% already detected. But it seldom does.
Ultimately this all boils down to information content, in the technical sense of the word Information theory. Equations, like those in mathematical physics, cannot be solved, without specifying additional data, such as initial conditions and boundary conditions. In complex systems, almost the entire information content of the mathematical description of such a system, lies within those auxiliary conditions, not the equations. Consequently, for such systems, the equations (the laws of nature) are rendered almost totally superfluous - the outcomes are almost entirely driven by the auxiliary conditions' information content, not that of the equations (it is not the laws of chess, that determines the outcome, in a game between a grandmaster and a novice). Physics, as a discipline, exhibits an "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics", precisely because it has cherry-picked phenomenon with exceeding-low-information-content, as its subject matter, thereby enabling a one-to-one match with the exceedingly-low-information-content of any mathematical description. But complex systems, do not enable such a one-to-one match. Consequently, physics cannot predict how they will behave; the equations do not have "what it takes" (i.e. high information content) to successfully enable highly accurate predictions.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
So your resolution is: "We can't be sure of anything, don't trust QM".
But I would like to predict exactly how this experiment will play out, IF we were to build it.
Can you help with that?
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
'So your resolution is: "We can't be sure of anything, don't trust QM".' Not at all. QM makes accurate predictions. But not for any of the reasons put forward in any of the standard "interpretations" of QM.
The situation is analogous to a shaman in a primitive culture, telling a sick person that consuming the bark of such-and-such a tree will alleviate their suffering, and lo-and-behold, it really does. Then the shaman subsequently tells the person that the reason/cause/interpretation for why the cure works, is that the bark is pleasing to the spirit residing in the tree.
But there are no spirits, and there are no wave-functions. The stuff really does work - but not for any of the supposed reasons being offered.
This, by the way, was the origin of the famous dictum in physics "Shut-up and calculate" - stop talking about absurd, nonsensical interpretations for why it works, and be content with the fact that it does; at least until someone comes along and proposes a common-sense cause for the observed effects.
As far as being able to predict outcomes for behaviors of complex systems, I can provide the following insights into what you are up against. It was written for the 2015 FQXi (Foundational Questions Institute) annual essay contest:
https://fqxi.org/data/essay...
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
I was hoping you'd post a formula or some percentage probabilities for the experiment's outcome. You know, actual numbers that we can test the hardware with.
A philosophical discussion doesn't really help.
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
Not possible. Reflect upon the following:
In the famous double-slit experiment, the vast majority of particles slam into the barrier containing the slits, and thus fail to pass through any slit, in the barrier. Does the QM analysis of probabilities provide the probability of that happening? No. It does not even try. That is the point. Think about it. How can the probabilities, behind the slit where the detectors are, ever add up to 1 (be unitary), if there is a probability >0.9 for never making it through any slit? QM never even attempts to keep track of the things for which the probability estimate will be wrong. Do the particles that were not detected, behave in the same way as the ones that were? Obviously not; if they did, then they would have made it through one of the slits, rather than slamming into the barrier. There is a deterministic reason why that happens.
QM theory is "the most accurate theory ever devised", precisely because it judiciously avoids making any prediction at all, about all the things that it cannot successfully predict, like which particles will slam into the barrier, and which will not. The same thing is true of all quantum experiments, including the Bell tests; the equation for computing correlations, simply ignores (fails to count) all the events in which either Alice or Bob fail to detect anything.
That is the problem with assumption Q. If the rest of the world, that was not actually detected and counted in an experiment, behaved like the tiny fraction that was detected and counted, then all the rest of the world would have been detected and counted. QM is unitary, precisely because the probability estimates it provides, only apply to the things actually detected. They do not provide correct estimates for anything not detected. Assuming that they do, is the problem.
In a nutshell, QM experiments will always detect 100% of whatever they detect, and 0% of whatever they do not detect. It is a theory about detection itself, rather than the behaviors of the things being detected.
davidbyrden Replied to Rob McEachern
> "Does the QM analysis of probabilities
provide the probability of that happening (slam into the barrier)? No. It does not even try."
It's possible to calculate the wave function at the barrier, and integrate the squared modulus of the function over all the solid parts, and normalise. You'll get a 99% chance (or whatever) of hitting the barrier, plus the small remaining probabilities of passing through.
Then, you can ignore the 99% and concentrate on the slits components. Why is this valid? Because QM is linear.
You don't see this calculation in books about QM because it's pointless. It's assumed to be done. It should be obvious to the reader that we're ignoring the unlucky particles. Because the reader should understand what "linearity" is, and its mathematical implications.
I get the feeling that you don't ?
Rob McEachern Replied to davidbyrden
"Because QM is linear." But many detectors are not.
As you yourself have noted in another post here: "I can easily prove that the particles you excluded are not randomly chosen" the same is true of many other detection processes. It is highly dubious to assume, as is usually the case, that the undetected particles will exhibit the same detection probability distribution as those that are detected (i.e. fair sampling).
Earlier you asked about the equation for computing the correlations in Bell tests. Did you note that the numerator does not count all the possible configurations? There is a large, "none-of-the-above" set of particles (where the polarity of both members of an entangled pair is unknown, due to the fact that at least one of the detectors often fails to detect anything). Those particle pairs are deliberately excluded from the computation; and this is no more random than in the case you noted above, and for the same reason.
Note also, as you have said:
"It's possible to calculate the wave function at the barrier, and integrate the squared modulus of the function..."
But the "squared modulus" is a non-linear operation. As I have pointed-out elsewhere, it corresponds to transforming the entire process into an energy detector. As long as each particle detected deposits the same energy in the detector, then the Born rule applies. But if the particles being shot at the detector have different energies, or the detector, like a polarity detector, only responds to a particular fraction or "component" of the total particle energy, then things get a bit more interesting.
Benjamin Stingle
I would love for someone to help me overcome an objection to this thought experiment at stated.
The key contradiction can only be generated when |W announces |w = |ok to W. The knowledge of |w = |ok (in advance of w=ok) is what allows for the rest of the contradictory inference by W.
W's subsequent measurement of L, w, occurs on a very particular, specific, precise basis. And I presume to accomplish this (amazing) measurement of a giant system (L) in a quantum way (e.g. so it has not decohered), L must be very isolated as a system.
But when |W announces his result ("yo, I just got |w = |ok !), isn't he transferring (leaking) very important information about the state of L? Wouldn't that information effectively break the isolation of L for the purposes of of the measurement w?
It seems to me like a very blunt leaking of key information in general. And in specific, it does result in W making a contradictory conclusion.
Just as W couldn't just ask |F : "Hey did you get tails?", or Schrödinger couldn't ask his cat to meow if it's not dead, I don't see how it's acceptable for W to hear |W's result, and still be able to make a valid w measurement on the stated basis.
I hope someone more educated than me can help me understand why this is "ok" (wink). Thanks!
davidbyrden Replied to Benjamin Stingle
The labs are "perfectly sealed boxes", ideals which we can only realise in quantum computers, not with real people and real labs. But that doesn't invalidate the logic of the argument.
The labs are partially "entangled" by the qubit that is passed from one to the other.
If you do the math, you will find that when /W measures "OK" on lab /L, it implies that agent F inside lab L has measured "+1/2", thanks to the entanglement. This is mentioned in the paper.
So, yes, you're correct. The announcement of "/OK" leaks ALL the information about the secret contents of lab L. Its state is now completely known to agent W.
But he doesn't measure it in its own basis { +1/2 , -1/2 }. He measures it in this other intermediate basis { OK , FAIL }. So there is a fifty-fifty chance of either result.
It is, of course, practically impossible to measure a real person in an intermediate basis like this. But, again, it is possible to realise an equivalent experiment using quantum equipment.
Rob McEachern Replied to Benjamin Stingle
Ultimately, the problem is that whatever W announces, is merely a statement of W's belief about a state, rather than the actual (true) state itself.
Bell's theorem and all related experiments, fail to consider the fact that in some peculiar, classical cases, W's belief about a state just measured, is guaranteed to be false, for a significant fraction of all the attempted measurements; it is not possible to correctly determine the state (heads or tails) of a coin, when it is being measured "edge-on". But when the entire protocol of the experiment forces one to "call it" either "heads" or "tails", rather than "none-of the above", a systematic bias is introduced into the correlation statistics.
levljovis Replied to Benjamin Stingle
benjaminstingle (:
Valentin Voroshilov
Knowledge does not belong to realm of physics. If "observer" means just a registering device, there is no need to use that word, just call it "device". If an intelligent subject is a part of a system, then there is no probability amplitude for that. If we make our own definitions we can prove everything. To Measure does not mean using mind, it means using measuring devices which register readings in a form observable for humans. but that's that. Writers simply should rewrite the paper removing intelligent agents. If it will remain logically consistent, then it deserves further discussion. https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
SuperDeterrent Replied to Valentin Voroshilov
Of course it does. Remember entropy and information content on the surface of a sphere encircling a black hole.
mbsq
The way I understand it, one agent A treats another B, including any measurements B may perform, as an uncollapsed quantum state. A may make her own measurements of this state. Put another way, each agent may pick a card at random from a certain deck, and the fact that other agents draw from the deck is irrelevant. It’s as if each agent has a deck representing the whole situation, and makes an independent random selection from the deck.
Therefore, I think most inferences you write about what other agents will observe are invalid. In particular, let’s examine the first line in Table 3. If F-bar observes “tails,” she cannot say that W will certainly observe “fail.” The general probability of observing “fail” is 5/6 (right)? F-bar can only say that W will observe “fail” five-sixths of the time, because F-bar’s random selection from the deck is independent of W’s.
Of course, my way of reasoning seems very counter-intuitive when you think about the agents as people doing definite things according to rules, but if we assume that everything can treated as a quantum system (which may very well be unrealistic), doesn’t it require that the different measurements should be treated as independent?
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
If F-bar observes “tails,” she can say with certainty that W will observe “fail.” The two labs are entangled. By making her measurement, she has altered the statistics of the other lab.
The entanglement was established by the qubit passed from the first to the second lab.
Of course, this 100% guarantee of "fail" exists only relative to F-bar. It's not true for other observers. All system states are relative, not absolute.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
How can you make any inferences about what other observers will observe if everything is relative to you and not true for other observers? Isn’t that a contradiction?
Didn’t the EPR paradox already teach us that we cannot acquire information about the “real properties” of a quantum system, and rather that these things don’t exist and everything is just an independent draw from the deck of cards?
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
The experimenters all know the configuration of the whole experiment.
Before the labs are sealed, all of the observers occupy a single world with shared facts. Once they are isolated, they can develop different facts. Such as the quantum measurements made inside the labs.
For the outsiders the result is a superposition; but for the experimenter who made a measurement, there is always a single result. This is basic QM and applies to the cat-in-a-box.
EPR is not a paradox and what it teaches us is that the classical model is not compatible with QM.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
You’re not replying to my main point: If each observer and their observations can be viewed as an superposed quantum state, then they cannot use any observations to predict what other observers will observe. Other observers will receive some random collapse according to certain probabilities, and this includes the part of the probability space in which the first observer did not make that particular observation.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
Yes, the observer inside each lab goes into a superposition of two states (relative to the outside). A cat-in-a-box situation.
But, all four observers know the experimental apparatus, including the probabilities of the quantum "coin" that seeds it all.
So, for example, agent /F is not stuck in a situation where she thinks "I might have HEADS or I might have TAILS, nobody knows".
Her actual situation is "I have TAILS with probability 2/3 and there's a superposed copy of me that has HEADS with probability 1/3."
Knowing the ratios of the states, we can use linear algebra to infer other results. And that is what quantum physicists do all day, it's not in any question.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
What is in question is whether QM is universally applicable. In everyday lab observations, there is a distinction between the quantum system observed, and the act of observation by the agent. We don’t have a quantum description of what a measurement is. But in the thought experiment, we assume that everything can be treated as a quantum system. And my contention is that, under this assumption, one observation does not give definite information about what another observation will be. Because from the other observer’s position, everything is in superposition and anything with a nonzero probability of occurring may happen. If I observe heads, there is a chance that another observer will make a measurement as if I observed tails. Because the assumptions require us to treat every observation as an independent random event.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
>> "What is in question is whether QM is universally applicable."
The paper tries to put QM in question, but it contains a logical error and therefore fails.
>> "one observation does not give definite information about what another observation will be."
I don't know why you would say that. Either you didn't read the paper, or you deny the fundamentals of QM.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
I did read the paper and I explained why I say that. It’s because QM requires us to treat the outcome of a measurement of a quantum system as completely random. If we assume that observer A and her measurements are just a quantum system from observer B’s perspective, then observer A’s measurements say nothing about observer B’s, since they are both just rolling dice measuring along different vectors in the same system. Now I don’t think the science gives us any reason to believe we can treat observers as superposed states— in all experience collapse does happen somehow. But the paper explores the assumption that QM is universally applicable.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
You say "QM requires us to treat the outcome of a measurement of a quantum system as completely random".
So, in that case, a 2-state quantum "coin" would have to read HEADS or TAILS with fifty-fifty probability. One half each. Only that satisfies the definition "completely random".
Early in the paper, the authors state that their "coin" has probabilities HEADS 1/3 and TAILS 2/3.
If your understanding of QM is correct, they are crazy. What did you think when you read that?
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
“Completely random” means occurring randomly according to the probability distribution. The distribution does not have to be uniform.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
I believe that if the distribution is not uniform, it gets described as "partially random".
Otherwise the phrase "completely random" would have nothing to distinguish it from "random".
No?
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
No. Sometimes a uniform distribution is not even possible, like when the space of possibilities is countably infinite. In any case, this is just a terminological question. I used the word “completely” to emphasize that there is no further cause to be elaborated upon, no hidden variables.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
So, what part of the experimental setup do you disagree with? You accept the 1/3 - 2/3 "coin" but what then?
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
See original post. I am challenging the validity of the inferences about what other agents observe.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
You wrote:
"If F-bar observes “tails,” she cannot say that W will certainly observe “fail.”"
Now, the authors' logic is this:
1. F-bar observes "tails"
2. She configures her qubit in the orientation "right"
3. She sends it to F
4. F measures it such that the result must be "up" or "down"
5. By linear algebra, "right" is fifty percent "up" and fifty percent "down"
6. Therefore F goes into a superposition of half "up" and half "down", relative to F-bar
7. W measures F in the basis "ok" / "fail"
8. The measurement operator "fail", defined in the paper, corresponds exactly to half "up" and half "down"
9. Therefore W is guaranteed to measure "fail" relative to F-bar.
I don't see how you can find fault with that, unless quantum mechanics is broken, in which case quantum computers would not work, and IBM and Google would have a few projects to cancel.
Where do you see an error in that sequence?
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
The problem is that the whole scenario is weighted with probability 2/3. You forgot to mention the other part of the probability space and compute the expectation of W taking that into account.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
Yes, this whole scenario is weighted with probability 2/3. I'm not denying that. This scenario might happen, or in other "runs" of the experiment it might not happen. Or (as I insist) we get a superposition of this scenario with another scenario.
But my question is this; you explicitly said that there's a problem *within* this scenario. What is it?
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
The problem is that you have to describe the whole probability space to make a prediction about what W will see. Fbar’s observations are irrelevant. There is no computing “within” the fact of Fbar’s measurement, since W measures the whole space independently.
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
The authors of the paper disagree with me about the correctness of their logic.
But we both agree on one thing; the state of a quantum system is not objective, but is relative to the observer. Different observers may hold different facts about the same thing at the same time. This is sometimes called the "many worlds interpretation".
Therefore, when we say (and we both DO say) that F-bar measures "tails" and infers that W will measure "fail", we mean that this conclusion holds true only for F-bar who measured "tails" and only within the lab that she occupies. That is a "world". There's another F-bar who measures "heads" and it's not true for her. There are other observers and it's not true for them.
So, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm accepting that W himself may measure "ok" - the paper explicity says that he does. But, in the "world" of F-bar who measured "tails", he does not.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
I see what you’re saying. The authors seem to reason about one timeline of events rather than a tree of timelines. So assuming a single world, I think the inferences about what other observers will observe in *the* future are invalid, assuming that everything can be treated as in quantum superposition.
SuperDeterrent Replied to davidbyrden
Buddy, you completely misunderstood MWI. There is absolutely nothing that can be said about things in different worlds, whether these things are observers or anything else. Nor you can apply probability or any other theory that span worlds.
davidbyrden Replied to SuperDeterrent
I disagree.
As an example; take the double-slit experiment. If we detect the particle immediately after it transits one of the slits, that puts us into a "world".
A transit of the other slit (which DIDN'T happen in our "world") has spawned another "world" which is not accessible to us.
But I can say a LOT about that other "world". I can say that every part of it which has not yet been influenced by the particle's decision (i.e. beyond the speed-of-light limit) is IDENTICAL to the "world" that I am in.
So I really don't understand what you are talking about. if we could say "absolutely nothing" about other worlds in MWI then it wouldn't be a theory, would it?
Could you link to an explanation please.
SuperDeterrent Replied to davidbyrden
When a macroscopic observer (who is yet another QM system comprised of QM particles) becomes entangled with a microscopic quantum system in a superposition, the world branches into non-interacting separate worlds. Each such world is a real manifestation of one part of that superposition. This is the essence of MWI. There is a Schrodinger equation and only Schrodinger equation that governs this all. Imagine a Turing machine. It unitarily advances state by state according to the algorithm of Schrodinger equation. As soon as a quantum measurement is made, the machine splits into independent machines each describing a part of the mentioned superposition. And in each part there is you, the observer, who is entangled with a specific superposition part e.g. "cat is alive" or "cat is dead". There is no collapse. There are multiple copies of you, all equally real. And they will never ever interact with each other.
davidbyrden Replied to SuperDeterrent
I agree with that and I'm not sure what part of my page you are objecting to?
davidbyrden
The paper contains an error which is pointed out here;
http://byrden.com/quantum/c...
mbsq
Is there any empirical evidence that it is possible for a measurement to be made and for the wave function to collapse from one perspective, and for it to remain uncollapsed from another perspective?
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
That's the central question in the "Schrodinger's Cat" and "Wigner's Friend" experiments.
With Young's Slits, I can answer "yes" to your question, in a somewhat unconvincing way. And that's an experiment that actually works.
mbsq Replied to davidbyrden
How does the double slit experiment have anything to do with the subjectivity of having made a measurement?
davidbyrden Replied to mbsq
While the particle is crossing the space between slits and detector screen, its wave function has collapsed from its own point of view. But it hasn't collapsed from the observer's point of view.
OK, I know you've never heard this before and you think I'm crazy. But hear me out.
You do agree that the wave function won't collapse, from the observer's point of view, until the particle hits the screen?
But I say that it has already collapsed, from the particle's point of view, because the particle "knows" which slit it used. Or, to be more accurate, the particle has a position and angle that we can track back to one of the slits.
Let's take the case of photons. It must be the case that photons carry that information during transit from slits to screen.
Why? Because if we insert an appropriate optical instrument in the air gap, we can focus on the slits. We can form an image of the slits. Therefore we can see which slit was used by each photon. Therefore each photon carries that information. Therefore the wave function of that photon, from its own point of view, has collapsed.
(For a working example of somebody putting an optical instrument in the gap and forming an image of the slits, see the Afshar Experiment)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
SuperDeterrent Replied to davidbyrden
Two different worlds are involved and they are completely independent. In one world, the slit 1 was used. In the other world, slit 2 was used.
davidbyrden Replied to SuperDeterrent
But if the particle hits the sceeen, its position is influenced by BOTH worlds. They're not independent.
The thing about MWI that I should spell out, is that a quantum decision does not split the entire universe immediately (relativity rules that out).
A quantum decision creates a bubble of alternative worlds, the bubble being the area of space that contains information about the decision. Everything outside the bubble remains as a single world.
Such bubbles may grow, at up to the speed of light, or they may blend together. This requires only that the information distinguishing them be erased.
In the double slit experiment, the detector screen erases the subtle information about the particle's path, therefore both worlds blend into the experimenter's subjective post-hoc world, where the particle apparently used both slits.
davidbyrden
I am especially fascinated by Assumption (C).
You suggest that you may have a violation of the rule that one person can imagine the thoughts of another person.
And what is your evidence for this?
A "thought experiment" where you imagine the thoughts of four other persons.
If your experiment shows a violation of (C), then we can't trust your experiment !
davidbyrden
This paper has been refuted many times, but usually with a lot of mathematics. So I've tried to write a very readable, simplified explanation. It's here;
Explaining the Renner-Frauchiger experiment
Troy Replied to davidbyrden
Thanks for the more accessible explanation. I agree completely that Renner spends 99% of the time talking about irrelevant things and 1% just skimming through the actual meat of the thought experiment. If I understood your write-up, WBAR needs to model a unique F and FBAR for every new basis?
I'm also interested in hearing your take on the recent no-go theorem since even if there is no contradiction between observers, observer-dependence is still fundamental. For ex: in a situation where a contradiction between observers would arise, they still cannot ever observe such a contradiction. Is that because they exist separately in their own World (Everett), or are one set of observers just erased from the universe? :(
Doesn't this imply an, at least a local, "Primacy" to one of the observers? And can such a "Prime Observer" prove to all the other observers that he has primacy over them?
davidbyrden Replied to Troy
I'd love to think about that one, but just to be sure, can you link me to that theorem?
Valentin Voroshilov (Dr. V)
What is wrong in
“Quantum theory cannot consistently describe the use of itself”
(Nature Communications volume 9, Article number: 3711 (2018); by Daniela Frauchiger & Renato Renner)
First, I would like to offer a problem to solve to everyone who consider himself/herself a physics: "A tennis ball is released 5 m from above the ground. At the moment when the ball hits the ground what will its spin?".
There is another one in the same series: "A tennis ball is released 5 m from above the ground. Solve the Schrödinger's equation for the ball and find its wave function for t > 0".
When presented with such problems a physicist would say that those problems do not make any sense. For example, a spin is a specifically quantum variable and only quantum objects can be described using that variable. In principle, the Schrödinger's equation should be able to be applied to any objects, including all macroscopic, i.e. classical, objects, like a tennis ball, but no one would do that. In fact, physicists do not even know for sure how to do that (that is what decoherence theory tries to understand).
In short, using quantum theory - in its current state - for describing the behavior of macroscopic objects is simply wrong because it means applying a theory beyond the limits of its applicability, exactly like using classical theory for describing the behavior of microscopic objects- it is wrong!
Now I would like to make only one short comment:
The authors begin Discussion with this statement:
“In the Gedankenexperiment proposed in this article, multiple agents have access to different pieces of information, and draw conclusions by reasoning about the information held by others.”
When a system involves subjects which state depends on their reasoning, that system simply does not belong to the realm of physics.
I don’t know if the argument can be made internally consistent without using intelligent species who have to reason about the processes possibly happening in the system, but I think that without this type of a formulation the argument remains wrong, or at least undefendable.
For example, statement like “observer, called agent F, measures the vertical polarisation z of a spin one-half particle S” should be replaced with something like “a classical measuring device D which can have only two states which depends on the vertical polarisation z of a spin one-half particle S"; and "when device D is brought to state A it means a spin of a particle contacting the device z = -0.5, when device D is brought to state B it means a spin of a particle contacting the device z = 0.5"; and etc. for all other statements related to any “agent”.
One of the issues confusing many arguments about quantum mechanics is that they intrinsically include "an observer" who reasons. If (and often it is a big IF) "reasoning" is just a figure of speech and just describes possible correlations between the states of a quantum system and the states of a classical system (a measuring device), why just don't completely eliminate that confusing language once and for all? If reasoning is an actual thinking - that's not physics any more. Someone can ask: "Why?". The simple answer is because every experiment involving at least one quantum object must (at least for now) be described in terms of probability amplitudes of specific events. There is no probability amplitude for "thinking, or "reasoning" (at least in physics).
As "an observer" a scientist who is a part of an experiment can do only one thing - register states of other classical systems. But he cannot think. Thinking is not a part of any physical law, not classical, not quantum. The only observer/thinker who can think is the who reads the paper (i.e. the one who makes an interpretation of all the data provided by the measuring devices - classical objects/systems).
The fact that logical paradoxes exist does not make formal logic wrong.
The fact that a paper uses scientific terminology does not make it yet scientific.
I would like to stress again that if a system includes "a reasoning device" (a.k.a. observer), this system does not belong to physics. If term "observer" ("agent", etc.) only represents "a registering device" (a.k.a. "measuring device"), there is no reason to keep that term at all.
Maybe this particular paper would have no logical inconsistencies left after all "observers"/"thinkers"/"reasoners" would have been replaced with just measuring devices which can have a specific set of states, or maybe not, it is the responsibility of the authors to make that check. A scientific paper cannot have any ambiguity. Term “observer” brings that ambiguity. Some time ago the editors of all scientific magazines stopped accepting papers on the development of a Perpetuum Mobile. It is a time for editors to stop accepting papers on quantum mechanics which describe an observer as an intrinsic part of a quantum system. And for the scientific community - there is simply no reason for paying any attention to such papers.
And now, after all the logic about the role of an "observer" the final nail in the coffin. When describing the though experiment authors write, quote: "Agent W could instead model agent F's lab as a big quantum system".
Right here we find the reason for this whole article being wrong.
There is no such thing as "a big quantum system".
A system is either quantum, hence microscopic and can be described by the quantum theory - in its current state.
Or,
the system is big, hence macroscopic, and CANNOT be described by the quantum theory - in its current state.
Remember two problems about a tennis ball?
Now you know the reason we talked about them in the beginning.
This is an excerpt from
Freeing The Schrödinger’s Cat:
Solving The Mysteries Of Quantum Mechanics
Part II
http://www.cognisity.how/2018/12/part2.html
Appendix II
Suresh Kumar
The wave particle duality is at the core of quantum physics. A particle is a locally bound wave,so that there is a localisation and a boundedness,appearing as wave function collapse.
The wave is hence a delocalisation of the particle due to a superposition of multiple states. Such a delocalisation possibility is self limited by the complexities in a macrostate quantum system due to noise signal interference from a thermal or observational or gravitational background.
However this does not theoretically preclude such a complex quantum state,if the system can be somehow manipulated to maintain a multi state superposition,despite noise signal interferences tending to cause a collapse scenario.
The Frauchiger-Renner thought experiment as an extended Wigner set up apparently involves macrostate manipulations so that a complex quantum state ends up in a superposition of states.
The contradiction posed in the thought experiment suggests that there is boundary in the micro or mesoscale beyond which the superposition principle cannot be extended,perhaps.
An altered analysis by Leifer,as compared to the thought experiment, implies that measurement outcomes may not be true for all observers,since the results are contingent on the observer perspective. This amounts to introducing an element of subjectivity,analogous to the Quantum Bayesian stance.
The observer as a macrostate entity could also be in a multi state superposition,combining or coupling opposites or polarized entities.
This would imply that the boundary for the superposition principle could theoretically be extended beyond the microstate limit set by the thought experiment,thus suggesting possibility for extending to macrostate quantum mechanics as robust scaleable systems.
SuperDeterrent
What a mess of an article. According to Feynman, if an explanation is messy or not clear, the author has no idea what he is talking about. I would use a title here named "A Disorganized Mind" to illustrate how NOT to write. How NOT to explain.